Ed wrote: "In my opinion its a dis-service to allow what I consider abusive training methods to be touted 'as the correct way to use e-collars.' "
Like most of Voodoo's messages, this one's a multi-page
exercise in babbling yipyap. Not only does Voodoo
bore you with
his rhetoric, he contradicts himself so often that you can't keep up with his
incoherent bullshit anyway. What's
What's THIS? Got no
answers, do you Voodoo?
Ed, you're article certainly wasn't about me but this bit of your post certainly was aimed directly at me. In my response to your article I congratulated you on being big enough to allow people who disagree with you to post on your forum. It now looks as if that was a bit premature.
One of the most vile criticisms that someone can level towards a dog trainer is that the tool or method that he uses is abusive, as you've done with me.
VILE CRITICISM? How many times have YOU done exactly
the same thing to ME, Voodoo?
Since you've never seen me train any dogs and since you've probably never even seen any dogs that I've trained it's completely out of place for you to make such a statement.
SINCE WHEN? It's OK for you to
do it, but nobody else can? What's
Perhaps "escape training" as you use the term is abusive. But as I do the work, it's not, not by any stretch of anyone's imagination. It's nearly identical with the Ecollar work that's done by the Dobbs Training Center, Martin Deely, LAPD, LASD, the US Secret Service, Utah State Police K-9 School and hundreds, if not thousands, more. Of nearly 600 posts on this forum, (and that doesn't include the hundreds on the "old" forum) most of them about Ecollars, this is the first time that anyone has said that they consider what I do to be "abusive." I expected better from you.
Your expectations were NOT MET. Go read ALL your
Voodoo Louie pages on the
- then run crying to your mommy.
Across the country people use the same terms differently, I'll suggest that's what's at the bottom of our difference in the use of the terms "escape" and "avoidance" training. As you use them, Ed, they're the same. In your article you mention the defining book of Ecollar terms, by Daniel Tortora. Then you proceed to say that "escape" and "avoidance" are the same thing. Tortora doesn't think so, neither do I, and neither do the vast majority of those who are fluent in Ecollars. "Escape" and "avoidance" as those terms are used in Ecollars are vastly different from one another and different from the way that you use them.
You keep calling my methods "old school" when in fact the leash and collar were used for centuries before Ecollars came along. If anything is "old school," it's the leash and collar. There's nothing wrong with being "old school," except that, to you, the term is pejorative. The technique used to "interrupt a dog's breathing" has been done far longer than either of us have been around by knowledgeable trainers who work with aggressive or dominant dogs everywhere.
I've never claimed to have invented escape training, something that you've alluded to in a post to someone else. There's nothing new about it. It's one thing that's working when a dog learns not to display aggression after having his breathing "interrupted" as you advocate. He "escapes" the discomfort by stopping that action. He "avoids" it in the future by not showing aggression again. Those are two different things that a dog learns. One is occurring during the learning phase and the other is occurring after the learning has occurred. That's how Tortora defines the terms and how I do as well. They're clearly not the same.
I've done over nearly
"Over nearly"? GODDAMN! This is some DEEP
Voodoo. Talk about bullshit? ONLY Louie could come up with
thirty seminars around the US and in Europe. I've appeared before hundreds of people, many of them experienced handlers and trainers and no one who's seen the work has ever called it "abusive."
All together now - a big round of applause for VOODOO LOUIE,
who has "appeared" before hundreds of people. VOODOO
LOUIE - who has
the whole world about his electrifying "seminars" and "credentials" - about 7
this year alone.
(Wowee! Last time I played a blues festival
I appeared before ~21,000 people. And who cares?)
Thanks Judith for talking about what you've seen, rather than some people, who "assume" how something is done and what its effects are.
You referring to yourself now, Voodoo? You
never STOP assuming.
Judith's point was that my methods are not, in spite of your comments, abusive. She's seen it, you haven't.
She's blind. We aren't.
That's all she was talking about, not the rest of your article.
Hundreds of people have let me put Ecollars on their dogs at seminars and during private training sessions because my reputation as a fair and just trainer and as humane and gentle is widely known.
So is your reputation as a LIAR, Voodoo.
I'm not recently "born again," as some people. Many of the more experienced trainers here, many of them your moderators, have habitually referred people to me and my website when questions about Ecollars have arisen. They didn't seem to find my methods abusive and neither did you until now. Nearly 600 posts on your forum and only a few weeks ago did I discover that you disagreed with how I use the tool. That's fine and anyone is free to disagree, doesn't bother me in the slightest. But anyone who calls my methods "abusive" as you've done is either badly informed or uninformed. It's ignorant to call a method or tool "abusive." Abuse isn't inherent in a tool or a method, it's all in how it's used.
As usual, you're contradicting yourself,
Voodoo. Explain THIS.
OMG - MORE babbling rhetoric? This never stops. I'm getting too
bored with this crap to comment very much more. This shit is exhausting
I'm laughing too hard - I'm gettin' a bellyache.
Lou - all this from the guy who writes on his web site ( http://www.loucastle.com/sit.htm)in an article on training a dog to sit " What’s happening is that the dog has come to understand what’s expected of him and is trying to shut off the stimulation a little faster. CONGRATULATIONS! You’ve just stepped into “escape training” which is just about as close to magic as we get in dog training! "
HEY! That Voodoo shit is (not) COPYRIGHTED. Who said YOU
could reprint it? READ YOUR OWN
PRIVACY NOTICE, Frawley. ATTENTION, FBI!! Here comes another
The point you miss is that I wrote "I have never met you." In addition I said that "this is not about Lou Castle" - its about ESCAPE TRAINING - which just happens to be the method you chose to use.
As far as I am concerned - escape training is old school training. Maybe abusive is the wrong word - OLD SCHOOL CERTAINLY IS NOT. Lou if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck - maybe a magic duck.
Unless it's NOT a duck. Too much Disneyland
for you, Frawley? Magic ducks?
You are right - I chose to keep my mouth shut
For the first time in LEERKOPF™
Frawley's whole life. You're simply
the greatest, Frawley. Aren't you?
about ESCAPE TRAINING - for 574 posts - and Lou it was not easy and those days are over.
It was not easy and THOSE DAYS ARE OVER.
The last time I looked I have never seen anywhere that the organizations you mentions (Dobbs Training Center, Martin Deely (never hgeard of him), LAPD, LASD, the US Secret Service, Utah State Police K-9 School) were known as experts in the field of e-collar training. Maybe your experts - not mine.
The fact is
The fact is? THE FACT
Jim Dobbs (as nice as he is) was one of the people who promoted escape training in this country.
I remember when Jim (with a serious face) said that he felt that he could train a Schutzhund dogs to bite a sleeve through Escape training. Basically saying that the dog would be stemmed (stim) until he is got on the sleeve. (boy I would liike to have seen that grip)
I have that idea right up there with back tieing a dog to a fence and beating the crap out of him until he bites. That was how things were done back in the 50's- remmber th 50's Lou? I do!!
Weren't you working in a laundromat then, Frawley,
playing with soap bubbles and bleach?
Back in your "pre LEERKOPF™
dogtraining expert" days? 'Fess up - tell the
Dont put words in my mouth
YOU DO. You have privileges nobody else has?
EXPLAIN THAT page, LEERKOPF™.
- I never heard of David Tortora until you wrote this
Dr. DANIEL F. Tortora.
Naturally you've never heard of him, although you're the "RESIDENT
EXPERT". Ever heard of "Tri-Tronics"?
So dont tell me that I mention his book in my article - WHAT BOOK?
"Understanding Electronic Dog-Training" - THAT
the greatest, Frawley. Aren't you?
With this said if he has a book that contains the concepts I wrote about I would probably say he is a pretty good dog trainer.
ROFLMAO! Let's lay this out.
If Dr. Tortora wrote a book that you agree with, he's probably a
pretty good dog trainer? The earliest copy I have is (c)1981. That
means he's only TWENTY FOUR YEARS ahead of your amazing "article" full of
brand new, earth shattering "theory"?
Hang on here, "Expert" Ed.
Why the hell didn't Tri-Tronics come to YOU, so YOU
could write their book? (Completely ignoring the facts that you can't spell worth shit, and
you're not one of the brightest, most articulate fellows in the country.)
A few research calls to Tri-Tronics indicated that they shipped ~50,000 - 60,000
"Understanding Electronic Dog-Training" books with their ecollars ....
that doesn't include giveaways, or the sales of just the book by itself.
Where were you
when they were searching for an expert writer?
I made it very clear that you did not invent escape training. The fact is
The fact is? THE FACT
EAR PINCHES, TOE PINCHES were used as escape training until e-collars came along. I am sure you are familiar with this.
Lou - you never read what I said about dominant dog collars - why does this not surprise me - the dogs are never corrected without first getting a voice correction of "NO" and there is a space in time for them to comply. If they respond to a voice correction of "NO- nothing happens.
This is different than escape training where they get stimulation with NO forwarning until they comply. So my advise is to read first Lou and then ask yourself if there is a possibility that you may learn something. But then you have blinders on.
SO DO YOU.
Click and see your blinders.
This all comes from the guy who writes on his web site that escape training is MAGIC. Right Lou - Magic.
Now you KNOW why his name is VOODOO
Sorry I call it old school training and it works for you because you fall into the catagory of a proffesional trainer where time is money. Read my philosophy on dog trainers and you will see exactly why I dont recommend people send their dogs to most professional trainers.
Who cares what you recommend? Most
people in dogs have been laughing at you since the mid-70s.
But you're simply
the greatest, Frawley. Aren't you?
- 'fess up - say it LOUD and say it PROUD:
"I AM THE GREATEST"
Don't be shy - write a whole 87
page article about it - title the article:
"How Ed LEERKOPF™
Frawley Became The Greatest"
THE FACT IS, that's a great title!
Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA,
Edited by Ed Frawley (Tue Nov 22 2005 08:14 PM)