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Topic: training progress |
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Renee Felknor
Member Member # 208
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posted October 09, 2001 05:59 PM
I have the
same exact problem as Karmen with my 16-mos old bitch. She has
a great ball drive and focus, so obedience was a piece of
cake. She was also the best puppy in the puppy circle -- first
to chase, bite and bark. The problems started with the switch
to a sleeve. She seems to have a low defensive threshold and
bites hard and full only under pressure (however slight),
never showed any signs of avoidance, and doesn't seem to be
stressed at all. I was trying to make her carry just like
Vince described, with hit & miss results. Now, correct me
if I'm wrong, I was under the impression that carrying is used
as a relief from stress. What other advantages are there? Do
we really need to concentrate on this so much?
My greatest concern now is the escape. She will do a nice
"courage test" (or a version thereof) if the helper is facing
her, but as soon as he switches to prey by running away, she
seems to be confused -- like: "Well, I chased him away, what
else do you want me to do?" It seems to me that she doesn't
view a man/sleeve combination as a prey item, or that her prey
drive is not high enough to sustain her through her reluctance
to bite a human unless pressured? We are currently trying to
make her interested in prey biting, but she seems to get bored
easily.
Any suggestions will be highly appreciated.
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90 | From: WI | Registered: Jul 2001
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Phyllis
Member Member # 522
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posted October 09, 2001 06:25 PM
Hi Vince,
I'm sorry about my wording, what I mean is that he gets worked
up after the ball, and will sit when I say sit and focus on
the ball. I can move the ball fairly close to his nose without
him biting at it. 2 inches at this point. When we are
working and he gets the ball, I put him into the heel in
circles, and he immediately drops the ball. I don't know if
I'm confusing him, or he just doesn't want to hold it in his
mouth. I'll have to review that part of the tape again, and
see what I'm doing wrong I think. Perhaps the basic training
that he has with heel is the problem?
--------------------
Thanks, Phyllis (Ontario, Canada)
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69 | From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2001
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Renee Felknor
Member Member # 208
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posted October 11, 2001 11:03 AM
Vince,
Richard, thank you.
Vince, I know what you mean about stress, that's why I said
that she *seems* not to be stressed. As a matter of fact, she
seems to be as happy as a lark. After getting one or two line
bites in prey, she stops paying attention to prey movements,
cocks her head and gives a short angry bark, as if urging the
helper to show her some offense. As soon as he does, she's
back at the game. At least I won't have to worry about her
getting locked in prey, aye?
Richard, I was hoping to hear from you… What you are saying
makes sense. We used frustration before to make her bite in
prey, but she just got bored. Using defense to build
frustration might work with her. I will discuss your
suggestion with my helper and let you know if it worked.
Thanks again, guys.
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90 | From: WI | Registered: Jul 2001
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Renee Felknor
Member Member # 208
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posted October 11, 2001 12:09 PM
Vince,
Richard--
My previous response was in reply to your first posts. Now
I will address the follow-up:
Vince, she has a tremendous ball/play drive, and I never
saw this as a problem. I wish she had half as much drive for
the sleeve as she does for the ball. She has pretty decent
obedience, and it was done strictly with a ball, never had a
pinch collar on her. You would think that her ball drive would
transfer into sleeve drive, that's how it usually works, but
not with her for some reason.
Richard, what you are talking about is EXACTLY what I want
to avoid, i.e. "locking her in defense". I know that it's
there and can be tapped into much later. Getting her
interested in prey is where the problem lies. The defense
approach was tried just to see if her weak sleeve bites were
due to genetics and since that was ruled out (she bites very
hard in defense) we immediately went back to prey. She's just
not that interested. That's why I think your previous advice
might work. Do you still stand by it?
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90 | From: WI | Registered: Jul 2001
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DesertThunderK9 Member Member
# 238
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posted October 11, 2001 01:34 PM
Ooohhhhh,
yeah, they sure can get locked in defense. I've got one of
those too, also can't title him. He can do a send out, tho.
Poor helper should have thought ahead the first time he tried
that. Dog hits sleeve, helper slips sleeve, now what? Dog
spits sleeve, eats helper. Not quite, I got there in
time. I've never been convinced that a stressed dog will
have a weak bite. This dog hits so hard you can hear it down
field, but he was always totally stressed out in defense. We
spent I dunno how many mos trying to teach this guy to carry,
which he would do if required, but at the first opportunity,
spit the sleeve and go right back after the helper. He's even
been known to p/u the sleeve and hurl it at the helper, no
kidding. Never could find anyone willing to wait for him in
the blind . . . I've given up trying to title this dog, tho
we're having the Anne Kent seminar here and I'd like to have
her work him and see what she can do. This dog is my poster
boy for why you don't start a green dog in defense. If I'd
known then what I know now . . .
--------------------
Joy Tiz, MS, JD www.DesertThunderK9.com *Godspeed,
Operation Enduring Freedom!*
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306 | From: Yucca Valley, CA | Registered:
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Pete Felknor
Member Member # 87
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posted October 22, 2001 09:37 AM
I guess I
need to reply to a couple of things here.
As to DWJ's last post... I'm not quite clear on what he's
getting at. Personally I would not even want to train a dog
with little or no prey drive, especially not for any kind of
bite work. You've got nothing to work with then except civil
aggression and to me this is like playing with a loaded gun.
No thanks.
If we're not talking about bite work then I guess it's
obedience exercises and if the dog is deficient in prey, you
go to food and hope that works. If it doesn't then I'm damned
if I can come up with anything except compulsion. I don't buy
into any kind of dog mysticism, which is why some of our
recently departed trainers used to piss me off.
But one line catches my eye--if "catching or stealing" the
prey item is important to the dog, then the dog must have at
least a moderate amount of prey drive.
Also, Vince--I have not had a great deal of helper
experience. I was just starting to get comfortable catching
dogs when I ruined my back and had to have surgery. Doc sez no
more helper work. So I'm just going to keep it to line bites
& escapes from now on
I like Richard's idea for Renee. Will have to see how it
works out.
Pete
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149 | From: Deerfield, WI | Registered: Jul
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