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Defense table
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Tim Martens
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woody Taylor wrote:
Let's get it back on track, okay?


pretty hard to do with lou. with him it's his way only and everyone else that does something different is doing it wrong AND abusing their dogs. sadly he's turned off another member.

don't judge all of us by lou thomas. i hope you continue to post here...
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Mike Schoonbrood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see we can continue a nice discussion Rolling Eyes

Personal attacks are not tollerated at all, unfortunately sometimes mods can't step in fast enough. There's nothing I hate more than locking a thread, so I'm gonna start quoting forum rules for y'all instead Smile

Quote:
2. All users must be courteous and truthful to others, personal attacks are not tollerated.


Quote:
If you disagree with someone because you feel the information they are offering is entirely wrong and/or dangerous advice, then contact a Moderator or the Admin -- if you find that it is a personal difference of opinion, leave it alone and move on to the next topic!! A friendly debate is fine, but when it turns into a \"I'm Right and You're Wrong\" argument the forum becomes less enjoyable for everyone.


This is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a friendly reminder to all to keep personal comments to PM's. I wonder what Gene England would say if he were to read what everyone claims he says or does....

So like Woody said, tone it down a notch and get back to the way this thread was going a few hours ago Smile Thanks guys!
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martens wrote:
Woody Taylor wrote:
Let's get it back on track, okay?


pretty hard to do with lou. with him it's his way only and everyone else that does something different is doing it wrong AND abusing their dogs. sadly he's turned off another member.

don't judge all of us by lou thomas. i hope you continue to post here...


Folks, it sucks (personal feeling here) when we post things about the boards on the boards. Particularly broad categorizations about people. Take it to the Ask A Moderator forum or PM one of us. Lou's fine, you're fine, Thomas is fine, this is an internet chatroom. Let's just make it a good one. Talking about what one member must be in the context of a thread brings things to a roaring halt...it's a non-sequitur...focus on the thread.

I haven't noticed anything about Lou I don't notice with any of you...passionate and confident in his beliefs. Lou is pretty good with dry humor and nuance, I have to admit.

This is a passionate subject and we can discuss it maturely. It's very obvious to me that there are two schools of thought presented in this thread. One views table training use as acceptable and humane. My guess is they've had good experience with their own dogs on the table. Another views table training as at best unnecessary and historically (in many cases) abusive. This sets up an interesting dynamic, but let's work through it.
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Lou Castle
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas Barriano wrote:
Gene is a good old boy who says what he means. IF he had meant to admit that he had hung dogs off of tables. That is exactly what he would have said..



***MOD EDIT***...the Gene England speculation will stop. On both sides. Thanks. Give him a call to come over and talk...we need the dues! Laughing[/Woody]

Thomas Barriano wrote:
ARRGGG. Very few Schutzhund clubs I train at, have their own field. Well built tables are heavy.


I bet you know of at least a couple of clubs or kennels that have their own facility or field where they keep agility equipment out in the open. How many do you know of that have a table out in the open?

Remember Mr. Leigh's comment? It was (to the effect) "Soon after (he) first saw table training (he'd) erected a building to house (his) tables." Seems to me that if he was so excited about getting started with the work that first he'd build the tables so that he could use them. He'd keep them covered to protect them from weather until he could build his room for them. But that's not what he did. FIRST he put up the building and THEN he built the tables. The only reason I can see for that is to keep the public from seeing what he's doing. Can someone suggest something else?

Thomas Barriano wrote:
You can believe what ever you want.


I notice that you haven't address either my or Connie's questions about the rather complete absence of commercially available videos for table training. Neither has anyone else. With videos addressing all sorts of dog training these days I wonder why no one has been able to find any?

Tim Martens wrote:
wow. you must have a pretty wide catwalk. ours is only about 16 inches wide.


Actually 16" is pretty wide. The ones I've used are only 12" But I fail to see what this has to do with this conversation.

Tim Martens wrote:
tables for training are about what? 6 feet wide? like i said, you must have a pretty wide catwalk to compare it to that.


I still fail to see what the width of a catwalk has to do with this discussion. And I've not seen tables used for agitation that are 6' wide. the ones I've seen are about 4' square (2' on a side) and about 3'-4' in diameter. There's less area than on a 10' long catwalk.

Tim Martens wrote:
don't try to hide behind semantics.


I don't hide behind anything.

Tim Martens wrote:
people here who use tables have given you their reasons for not keeping their tables outside and you continually come back with your "you don't want the public to see you abuse the dogs" rhetoric.


I've never discussed anyone here who uses tables. If you'd been paying attention I specifically exempted people on this list as anyone who is abusing dogs on tables. Connie even commented on that fact in one of her posts.

Tim Martens wrote:
while you may not have used the word "liar", you continue to not believe the reasons they give


Since I'm not accusing them of any abuse and there isn't anyone here who will say that they abuse dogs on their tables, their comments don't apply.

Tim Martens wrote:
you choose to believe they aren't telling the truth. thus a defacto lie.


Now who's playing games with semantics? As has been pointed out a couple of times my comments are NOT addressed to anyone here.

Thomas Barriano wrote:
List members and owners. I have better things to do, than enter in another useless discussion with ***MOD EDIT***...throttle it down...


I wonder why it is that some folks are incapable of controlling their emotions? Or is it that they're unwilling?

Thomas Barriano wrote:
Gene England has trained more Police and sport dogs (to V scores) than Mr. Castle has seen.


***MOD EDIT***[/Woody]
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Connie Sutherland
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
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Location: North-Central Coast of California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Test post. Ignore.
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Tim Martens
Young Dog


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you don't know that the larger the surface area of the wood the more it is prone to warp and the more noticeable it is, then you need to go back to woodshop...

your comments are not directed at anyone here? in the other thread you stated that the only reason to "hide" table training was due to some "untoward" methods. then in this thread you repeatedly ask PEOPLE HERE why their tables aren't in the open. you mentioned deductive reasoning? it's not hard to see what you are implying about PEOPLE HERE.

is it that hard for you to say something like "some people have probably misused the tool in the past and may still be misusing it, but if these non-hanging methods are yielding good results, have at it"? it is possible that there are people out there that get good results using methods that differ from your own.
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Al Curbow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can some of the people on this board that use a table for training make a video then post it? Then all of us people that never seen it done can get a better idea of what the deal is and form our own opinions, hopefully you guys can post more than one so we can see different techniques.
AL
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Tim Martens
Young Dog


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

probably won't happen al. they will probably continue to keep their methods shrouded in secrecy to keep their abusive methods out of the public eye Rolling Eyes
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martens wrote:
probably won't happen al. they will probably continue to keep their methods shrouded in secrecy to keep their abusive methods out of the public eye Rolling Eyes


I think it's a great suggestion and I would ask that someone take up Al on his request. We dont' have a lot of reference points. Might be informative.
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Tim Martens
Young Dog


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woody Taylor wrote:
Tim Martens wrote:
probably won't happen al. they will probably continue to keep their methods shrouded in secrecy to keep their abusive methods out of the public eye Rolling Eyes


I think it's a great suggestion and I would ask that someone take up Al on his request. We dont' have a lot of reference points. Might be informative.


yeah, actually gregg asked me about doing a video of his table training. the next time i make it up to his neck of the woods, i'll see if i can get some video...
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Jeff Oehlsen
Young Dog


Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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Location: Aurora Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the "cleaning up the out" part. Maybe if they knew how to teach it in the first place................. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Don't worry, I think everyone here should put their dog on a table. That way you can learn just how foolish you really are.

You will either think "lazy decoy" or "WTF" are you doing to my dog?

Go ahead and try it, after all nothing can go wrong according to the experts. I figure if you have the balls to ask, you should have the balls to put your dog up on the table and see what is up. Why listen to people that have seen the negative side affects??? I say go ahead, just knock it on Roy.

Thomas, good to see you here. However, if I stare at a dog, what drive am I most likely to elicit??????????? HOW DARE YOU!!!! That is right it is defence. Staring is a challenge buddy. A confident dog just stares back.

I broke a lot of dogs figuring this out. Just trying to help out.
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Oehlsen wrote:

Thomas, good to see you here. However, if I stare at a dog, what drive am I most likely to elicit??????????? HOW DARE YOU!!!! That is right it is defence. Staring is a challenge buddy. A confident dog just stares back.


Now that I think about it...Jerry opened this thread calling it a "defense table." Why is it called that?
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woody Taylor wrote:
Jeff Oehlsen wrote:

Thomas, good to see you here. However, if I stare at a dog, what drive am I most likely to elicit??????????? HOW DARE YOU!!!! That is right it is defence. Staring is a challenge buddy. A confident dog just stares back.


Now that I think about it...Jerry opened this thread calling it a "defense table." Why is it called that?


The defense table was called that because it was developed to elicit defense, usually in a dog that wouldn't/couldn't show defense at ground level (because it wasn't feeling threatened enough).
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Bob Scott
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
Woody Taylor wrote:
Jeff Oehlsen wrote:

Thomas, good to see you here. However, if I stare at a dog, what drive am I most likely to elicit??????????? HOW DARE YOU!!!! That is right it is defence. Staring is a challenge buddy. A confident dog just stares back.


Now that I think about it...Jerry opened this thread calling it a "defense table." Why is it called that?


The defense table was called that because it was developed to elicit defense, usually in a dog that wouldn't/couldn't show defense at ground level (because it wasn't feeling threatened enough).


Why would a dog feel MORE threatened if it is closer in height to the trainer?
I would think it would feel more threatened on the ground, lower then the trainer.
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
Woody Taylor wrote:
Jeff Oehlsen wrote:

Thomas, good to see you here. However, if I stare at a dog, what drive am I most likely to elicit??????????? HOW DARE YOU!!!! That is right it is defence. Staring is a challenge buddy. A confident dog just stares back.


Now that I think about it...Jerry opened this thread calling it a "defense table." Why is it called that?


The defense table was called that because it was developed to elicit defense, usually in a dog that wouldn't/couldn't show defense at ground level (because it wasn't feeling threatened enough).


Q.E.D. So why all the talk about working these dogs in prey, making them feel superior, etc.? This is what I don't understand.
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woody Taylor wrote:
....Now that I think about it...Jerry opened this thread calling it a "defense table." Why is it called that?


The defense table was called that because it was developed to elicit defense, usually in a dog that wouldn't/couldn't show defense at ground level (because it wasn't feeling threatened enough).[/quote]

Q.E.D. So why all the talk about working these dogs in prey, making them feel superior, etc.? This is what I don't understand.[/quote]

Apparently other uses for it have developed since its original use, and after following this thread closely today, I now believe that there are people who have not seen it used for the purpose for which it was created, and therefore do not understand the distaste the mention of it causes in people who *have.*

This is JMO, after (as I said) watching the videos I was able to gather up a couple of weeks ago with a couple of trainers who showed me both the "defense table" use of the table and then the "doggies in prey playing on the table" use which I guess is what some people have seen exclusively.

And maybe the old, original use has been phased out....?
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Scott wrote:
....Why would a dog feel MORE threatened if it is closer in height to the trainer? ....I would think it would feel more threatened on the ground, lower then the trainer.


Because the dog is on a table (not 2' high, either) with no place to go but over the side. Given a choice, if the dog would retreat, where does he retreat to on a table? Trapped.
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But again, it appears that there are other uses for the "defense table" and that there are a number of people who have seen only those uses.

I am starting to understand the divide now.
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Lou Castle
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martens wrote:
if you don't know that the larger the surface area of the wood the more it is prone to warp and the more noticeable it is, then you need to go back to woodshop.


Still unable to stay away from the personal attacks I see. No trip to woodshop will be necessary. Especially since the table used for agitation, at least the ones that I've seen, are smaller than any catwalk I've ever seen. That would make them less likely to warp, wouldn't it?

Tim Martens wrote:
your comments are not directed at anyone here? in the other thread you stated that the only reason to "hide" table training was due to some "untoward" methods. then in this thread you repeatedly ask PEOPLE HERE why their tables aren't in the open.


Tim you really need to learn to read more carefully. I never asked WHY their tables aren't in the open. I asked IF their tables are in the open. It's obvious that you can't see the difference. No one ever responded that I saw anyway.

Tim Martens wrote:
is it that hard for you to say something like "some people have probably misused the tool in the past and may still be misusing it, but if these non-hanging methods are yielding good results, have at it"?


I said just that in the other thread on table training. That thread seems to have been deleted.

Tim Martens wrote:
it is possible that there are people out there that get good results using methods that differ from your own.


No, that's absolutely impossible.

Didn't you say in another thread that you weren't going to be responding to my posts any more? I wish you'd keep your word since you don't seem capable of anything but ad hominem attacks.
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

QUOTE: I said just that in the other thread on table training. That thread seems to have been deleted. END

No table-training thread has been deleted that I know of.

There were comments deleted on today's thread -- and that's it.
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