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Author Topic: SHARPNESS
az trooper
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posted December 19, 2001 04:16 PM     Profile for az trooper   Email az trooper     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
IS SHARPNESS ALL TOGETHER AN UNDESIRABLE TRAIT IN A STREET DOG, REGARDLESS OF HOW SLIGHT? IS GETTING YOUR DOG TO WATCH YOUR "6" STRICTLY A TRAINING ISSUE OR IS THERE SOMETHING INNATE IN A DOG THAT IS CONTINUALLY ENVIRONMENTALLY AWARE? I DO NOT ADVOCATE "KOOKS ON A LEASH", HOWEVER, LIVE ON THE ROAD IS SOMETIMES NOT VERY KIND, NOR ARE SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON IT. MAYBE I'M FROM THE STONE-AGE AND NEED TO GO BACK TO WALKING ON MY KNUCKLES BECAUSE THIS COMPUTER STUFF IS KILLING ME.
Posts: 36 | From: Winslow, Arizona | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
jason
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posted December 19, 2001 04:32 PM     Profile for jason   Email jason     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
AZ trooper

I LOVE A SHARP DOG!! But I'm a civilian and I don't need a dog with rock solid nerves either. I think the two things, whether related or not, are not often seen in the same dog. I would also want some sharpness in my dog if I was not a civilian(maybe especially). But it would need to have really good nerves too, no? I think that is probably one of the reasons a good police dog is hard to find. I sure hope some experienced people chime in on this one, it's an interesting topic.


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Kelly George - Norstar1
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posted December 20, 2001 11:25 AM     Profile for Kelly George - Norstar1   Email Kelly George - Norstar1     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think that different people have different definitions of what SHARP means. Like, my definition of sharp may be different from yours.
Posts: 102 | From: Harrison, AR | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dave Lilley
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posted December 20, 2001 11:47 AM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I doubt thay many informed people would argure that "slight sharpness" is undesirable in a street dog.

But as far as "watching your 6" (watching your back for civilians) this is primarily a training issue. Every dog needs slightly different training to achieve the deisred results.

Without training... most really sharp dogs seem to spend most of their time "watching their own 6".

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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jason
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posted December 20, 2001 12:00 PM     Profile for jason   Email jason     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kelly,
So true. One persons' sharp dog with quick reflex is another persons' bag of nerves. An exellent example of this is when the kennel Des Deux Pettois traded the bloodlines of Erica (Peter Engles foundation bitch) for an NBVK dog with "better nerves." However, it's interesting to note that Des Deux Pettois then went back to that line to get some of this sharpness back into their line, I believe through an Erica daughter named "Fury". The rest is history.

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Dave Lilley
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posted December 20, 2001 12:42 PM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Here we go again! Nerves and sharpness are NOT the same thing. (reference Kevin Sheldahl's previous postings for more)

Here is part of the problem:

(For discussion we can classify both nerves as low, medium, or high)

In my experience no more than 10 to 15% of all working sport / protection dogs have STRONG nerves.

Problem: Sharpness (which originates from defense) puts pressure on nerves because the dog percieves / responds to even weak stimuli... that paper sack blowing accross the lawn for example.

Solution: Many sport people and show people prefer a dog with no defense or sharpness... that way, the nerves don't look as bad as they often are... the dog doesn't respond to everything or percieve much threat so nerves aren't can be moderat or weak but the dog can still function.

It is POSSIBLE but rare to have a dog with sharpness AND strong nerves.

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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jason
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posted December 20, 2001 03:06 PM     Profile for jason   Email jason     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dave,
Here we go again? "Nerves and sharpness are not the same thing." Dave,this is exactly what I am trying to point out. The kennel Des Deux pettois(in my opinion)made that same mistake to think that sharpness goes hand in hand with weaker nerves. I also said that whether they are related or not(people will argue over that), they aren't often seen in the same dog. I don't think we have a difference of opinion here. "It is POSSIBLE but rare to have a dog with sharpness AND strong nerves." That is exactly what Erica Des Duex pettois had. Exactly the kind of dog I would want watching my "6".

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Dave Lilley
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posted December 20, 2001 03:16 PM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Originally posted by jason:
One persons' sharp dog with quick reflex is another persons' bag of nerves.
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Based on this statement it appears that you are arguing that they are the same thing.

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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jason
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posted December 20, 2001 03:23 PM     Profile for jason   Email jason     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dave,Not at all. I'm arguing that there ARE other people who feel that they are the related. I do not. I've never been great at relaying my thoughts. If you knew the "Erica" story I don't think you would have taken it that way.
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Kelly George - Norstar1
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posted December 20, 2001 03:27 PM     Profile for Kelly George - Norstar1   Email Kelly George - Norstar1     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Like my definition of sharp is a dog that is on top of things. It has nothing to do with nerves.
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Ellen
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posted December 20, 2001 03:33 PM     Profile for Ellen   Email Ellen     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Lilley:
Here we go again! Nerves and sharpness are NOT the same thing. . . . . Problem: Sharpness (which originates from defense) puts pressure on nerves because the dog perceives/responds to even weak stimuli... that paper sack blowing accross the lawn for example.

I agree that "nerves & sharpness are not the same things". I agree in part that "sharpness puts pressure on nerves" -- IMO sharpness CAN put pressure on nerves depending on the the dog, the stimulus and the situation but it does not necessarily HAVE to. I disagree that sharpness "originates from defense" -- IMO sharpness is just the speed at which a dog reacts to a stimulus, not the manner in which it responds. The dog's nerve and certain other temperament characteristics determine whether a dog will respond defensively or not to any given stimulus -- not the speed or threshold at which the dog responds. JMO.

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Ellen Nickelsberg
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com


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Dave Lilley
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posted December 20, 2001 04:23 PM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Ellen, your definition sounds the same as reflexes to me. When az trooper refers to his dog as sharp, I'll bet he means more than just awareness and reflexes.

I've never seen or read your definition before. Most books, websites etc. I've seen define sharpness as the tendency to "fire up" or react aggressively to without much stimulus.

A dog that "fires up" (barks aggressively)when a a paper sack blows accross the yard is exhibiting sharpness.

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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Dave Lilley
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posted December 20, 2001 04:56 PM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Here are some links that discuss the definition of sharpness:

[/URL]

[URL=http://www.leerburg.com/terms.htm]
There seems to be some level of agreement regarding aggression and its relationship to sharpness.

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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Dave Lilley
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posted December 20, 2001 04:58 PM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Don't know why the links didn't show up before:

Definitions of sharpness:
http://www.caradobe.com/schdobe.html http://www.workingdogs.com/dom1.htm http://www.leerburg.com/terms.htm

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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Vince P.
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posted December 21, 2001 09:37 AM     Profile for Vince P.   Email Vince P.     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kevin:

Jason said that not me. He can be emailed at …

I on the other hand know that sharpness has nothing to do with nerves. Sorry Jason but I’m finally in Kevin’s good graces again. LOL.

Dave:

Thank you for the translation I had no idea what AZ Trooper was saying. I have learned from experience that you have to read Ellen’s posts carefully before responding. I think what she means by speed is the amount of stimuli needed. A sharp dog needs less stimuli to react. Thus they react faster (speed).

AZ Trooper:

Any dog used for protection work should have a slight sharpness to them.


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jason
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posted December 21, 2001 10:24 AM     Profile for jason   Email jason     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey wait a minute.
Jason said what? Let me post a translation of some of the history of Peter Engles kennel to help clear up what I was saying.

The breed dog "Erica" originated from the Belgian kennel "Des Deux Pettois", which at that time with its breed also only still in the child shoes, but already was to give the blood line up of Erica again. He had seen and practically over night had begun a Rueden from a blood line NBVK to exchange its dogs. Its new dog was fewer "nervously" as he called it, (he actually meant temper), and had apart from a good hardness heavy full grasps. Personally these dogs reminded me of German Shepherd dogs and I too much loved the nevertheless even over-foaming temper of the original Malinois.(((now because of space I will skip down a little))). Strange, the kennel Des deux pettois one of its erfogreichsten throws of the mixture of the two blood lines owes. A Erica daughter(Fury) brought the desired mixture from hardness and temper, which were to be seen later from the inzuchten on G'Vitou and its blood line only very rare with G'Vitou exactly. For this "nervous" dog had exactly the the temper, the speed and reflexes, which we needed in Germany for our subordination and the protection service.
(((maybe that will help clear up what I was trying to say)))


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Dave Lilley
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posted December 21, 2001 10:28 AM     Profile for Dave Lilley   Email Dave Lilley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Vince wrote: I have learned from experience that you have to read Ellen’s posts carefully before responding. I think what she means by speed is the amount of stimuli needed. A sharp dog needs less stimuli to react. Thus they react faster (speed).
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Sure Vince but "sharpness" means more than just responding quickly... its how the dog responds. If a dog hears a noise and starts to SALIVATE immediately... is that sharpness?

When used in the protection context, I have never seen any book, journal, or website define it as simply a "quick reaction" without reference to the manner of the response (aggression) as Ellen indicated.

Perhaps if someone could give me any legitimate written reference or citation that defined sharpness differently when used in the protection context--- I could accept that there is a legitimate alternate definition.

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Dave Lilley
Michigan State University
School of Criminal Justice


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Vince P.
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posted December 21, 2001 01:26 PM     Profile for Vince P.   Email Vince P.     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Good points. I will let Ellen respond for herself.
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Ellen
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posted December 21, 2001 03:32 PM     Profile for Ellen   Email Ellen     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vince P.:
Good points. I will let Ellen respond for herself.

Gee, thanks Vince. Couldn't you tell I was using the old "avoidance" technique

Let's see -- where to begin. From the top.

I wrote: "IMO sharpness is just the speed at which a dog reacts to a stimulus, not the manner in which it responds."

Dave wrote:

quote:
When used in the protection context, I have never seen any book, journal, or website define it as simply a "quick reaction" without reference to the manner of the response (aggression) as Ellen indicated.

I can't disagree with you -- when used in the protection context. Problem is -- I was talking generalities. Sorry! I can't even tell you how I got there except that I seemed to have zeroed in on only one part of az's (who has disappeared into the sunset) question "IS THERE SOMETHING INNATE IN A DOG THAT IS CONTINUALLY ENVIRONMENTALLY AWARE?" rather than the total protection part.

Could have been that I was still under the "influence" of pain-killers after foot surgery the day before. In any case -- Sorry Dave. Sorry Vince. Sorry all other clear-headed folks.

Now ..... may I resume "avoidance"?

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Ellen Nickelsberg
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com


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az trooper
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posted December 23, 2001 08:52 PM     Profile for az trooper   Email az trooper     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It has been a few days, no doubt, but I have not disappeared into the sunset. I have read all the posts, to this moment regarding my question. It appears that there is a general lack of aggreance on a functional definition for "Sharpness". I do appreciate all the input. I don't know if I would say my dog is sharp ( an Otis grandson); he is quick to react to overt stimuli. I thought Sharpness was best defined as a facet of character that manifested itself in behavior that could be described as "untrusting" ( note; not to be confused with untrustworthy)and very aware of its immediate physical environment in conjunction with a moderate to fast reaction to "intolerable" circumstances ( handler being approached from the rear or too quickly, threatening posture, loud and bousterious vioces). Being that I am NOT a handler for my department and my dog and I volunteer in K9 operations for and at the request of the local city and county departments, I was wondering if the work I have done in conditioning my dog to be "environmentaly aware and quick to react to percieved intollerable actions" would inhibit our sucess as a sport team as these two aforementioned entities are now forming units of their own. Thanks again to all those who responded, I think the lack of a widely accepted defginition of a single term so frequently used makes dog training and dog trainers so intresting.
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Richard Cannon
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posted December 23, 2001 08:58 PM     Profile for Richard Cannon   Email Richard Cannon     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
AZ Trooper,

What you are describing more aloofness rather than sharpness. Sharp has to do more than the level of stimulation required to get the dog to respond. An aloof dog is standoffish (less social), as opposed to reacting to some outside stimulus.


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az trooper
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posted December 23, 2001 09:48 PM     Profile for az trooper   Email az trooper     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Richard, I never really thought of the character of the kind of dog I described as being aloof,( when thinking of aloof, I think feline, not canine)however, I think you might have a point there, to a degree. Perhaps I should have included the facet of unwavering loyalty to his / her handler also. I would want the self -same dog to be mutally dependant upon me as I am on it. Maybe I'm trying to describe an intangible ideal and that's jammin' me up.
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Richard Cannon
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posted December 23, 2001 10:04 PM     Profile for Richard Cannon   Email Richard Cannon     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
AZ Trooper,

Most protection dogs have a level of aloofness. Most are also very loyal to their handler. Basicly based on packing behavior, if the dog is aloof with others there is no place to go for packing other than the handler and the immediate family. Fairly typical with protection breeds. My dogs are a little different based on the level of socialization I do with them. My dogs are more social than most. My preference is to keep them that way. Our dogs are part of the family and they need to be social if we have company or we take them out with us.


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az trooper
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posted December 23, 2001 10:23 PM     Profile for az trooper   Email az trooper     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Richard, the very activities you describe is the basis for my question in the very first place, is that aloofness / sharpness thing not required for a dog that serves in any copacity, as a protection dog ( travel complanion, home security, law enforcement) and are we breeding / training, too much in the way of social and approachable?
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az trooper
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posted December 23, 2001 10:40 PM     Profile for az trooper   Email az trooper     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In review of the previous posts, I took Dave's suggestion to refer to Ed's Terms page. Perhaps if we all agreed to refer to Sharpness as Guard Drive, that would make it easier as it seems all are in agreement that this particular drive IS needed in the composition of a TOTAL protection dog. Now the question remains, how do I RESPONSIBLY develop this drive? Is this on any of Ed'sproductions? I used to own the first steps in bite training, however, that's now long gone. Thanks for all the imput.
Posts: 36 | From: Winslow, Arizona | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged

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