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Author Topic: Positive Vs E Collar Training  (Read 17217 times)
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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #1200 on: Today at 03:58 PM »

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smokeybear-
ANYTHING can be seen as EXTREME by ANYONE at ANY TIME; does not make it so though

Edited: No more of this. Thank you.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:41 PM by k9media » Logged

jenci
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« Reply #1201 on: Today at 04:00 PM »

Smokeybear, you are right - sorry!
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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #1202 on: Today at 04:03 PM »

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jenci- You want the goverment to ban a device in which you freely admit having no experience of?

Yes they do, death to dogs and sentiments such as that, amongst other equally extreme things, define and identifies the radical extremists.
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smokeybear
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« Reply #1203 on: Today at 04:05 PM »

Is jumping to illogical conclusions your only means of exercise Denis? Very Happy

If you wish to continue to use sensationalist hyperbole to support your views along with categorising others into meaningless groups that is, of course, your privilege.

It does however undermine your credibility as someone who can clinically and unemotionally conduct a debate without resort to personal insult.



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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #1204 on: Today at 04:10 PM »

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Smokeybear- lot of dogs are irrevocably harmed for no good reason.
Smokeybear, I have to get out very, very, soon but the best beings to comment on your absurd remarks are dogs themselves and if these dogs could speak, well now…..they speak with their faces....…

Edited.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l159/dcarthy/New%20Illa/IllaFaceShot.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l159/dcarthy/New%20Illa/thingywatercrop.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l159/dcarthy/New%20Illa/Thingycrop.jpg
« Last Edit: Today at 04:43 PM by k9media » Logged

Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #1205 on: Today at 04:14 PM »

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smokeybear- It does however undermine your credibility as someone who can clinically and unemotionally conduct a debate without resort to personal insult.

Oh, coming from you or other extremists, I can live with that.
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mattygroves
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« Reply #1206 on: Today at 04:23 PM »

Is jumping to illogical conclusions your only means of exercise Denis? Very Happy

If you wish to continue to use sensationalist hyperbole to support your views along with categorising others into meaningless groups that is, of course, your privilege.

It does however undermine your credibility as someone who can clinically and unemotionally conduct a debate without resort to personal insult.





What Smokey said Very Happy

Denis, you'd make a far more believable and interesting case if you talked about the tool, rather than the people (including people that aren't even 'here' anymore).

Do you learn anything?
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Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #1207 on: Today at 04:34 PM »

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Mattygroves- if you talked about the tool, rather than the people (including people that aren't even 'here' anymore).

When people put their names on a death warrant it is there forever, even if the death did not take place,that does not remove ‘intent’.

As your not happy with what I have said about your online ‘friends’ and offline friend, below is what the owner of this Westie said about you all, including the online stalkers, in an email with an e-card just before Xmas. Do you seriously think pet owners could hold you in anything but sheer contempt - get real, just accept it, your a crank.

Edit- and even including my full name which made me have to put up with calls to my office and emails to my personal account from some of these animal rights extremist nutters.Edit
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C Wells
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« Reply #1208 on: Today at 04:42 PM »

Dear readers

I would like to clarify to all readers that Dogs Trust does not allow, condone, promote, advocate or approve of any methods of dog training that uses any kind of punishment. This includes physical abuse, beating, kicking, and electric shock collars or other devices that cause pain or suffering to a dog.  Under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever would Dogs Trust permit any act that is detrimental to dog welfare.

The notion that we approve “beatings” is unequivocally untrue and the messages that have been posted on this site suggesting otherwise are wholly incorrect and false.   

For further information about Dogs Trust and all aspects of its work contact us on 020 7837 0006 or visit our website at www.dogstrust.org.uk

Christina Wells
Dogs Trust
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k9media
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« Reply #1209 on: Today at 04:47 PM »

This is and will be the last time I say this. Freedom to debate the use of the e-collar is permitted. Making accusations about people abusing animals IS NOT. A further breach and I'll have no option left but to ban.
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Lou Castle
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« Reply #1210 on: Today at 04:47 PM »

If you're one of those people who judge the value of a post by first checking it's length, go no further.  If OTOH you're someone who's interested in truth and care about dogs, please read on.  If you have a weak stomach, you might want to skip this. 

K9media wrote
Quote
Accusations of dog abuse is pretty serious


I agree that accusations of abuse of a dog is very serious. 

With that in mind, unless of course he returns with more lies and nonsense or someone else quotes him, this will be my last word on the cyberstalker Steve Leigh. 

One of the many reasons that he's been thrown off so many dog training boards is that he used and still advocates the use of a training tool known as a "training table."  Like any tool this device has its proper uses and is subject to abuse.  When this tool is abused and there's evidence to believe that Steve did so, it's one of the most horrid forms to torture of animals that exist. 

I've never met Steve, never seen him train and have never seen any dogs that he's trained.  I've asked for years for him to back up his claims that he's trained dogs, but as you can see, he pretends those requests for information don't exist. 

Some dogs simply do not have it in their temperament to bite a human being.  Yet many owners of those dogs want that kind of training.  (This is not meant to invite discussion regarding that mentality, if you wish to do so please start a new thread).  Those who engage in table training and have no regard for animals use that tool in this fashion. They place the dog on the table and attach a chain that connects the pole rising out of the center of the table to the dog's choke chain.  They approach wearing protective gear in a manner known as "agitation" whereby they use threatening body language to place stress on the dog which can be relieved by biting.  If the dog won't bite they shove him off the table. 

This table has been constructed so that the dog's rear legs can just barely touch the ground.  Probably some of you have seen the photos on Steve's site.  The dog is left hanging by his choke collar which tightens around his throat and he can't get back on the table.  He's strangling.  Slowly dying. This is allowed to continue until, at the last minute, just before the dog passes out, he's lifted back on the table and allowed to recover.  Then the agitator comes in again.  If the dog won't bite or doesn't bite hard enough, the dog is shoved off the table again.  Again, he's strangled until he nearly passes out from lack of air.  Again, he's lifted back on the table. 

This is repeated until the dog realizes that unless and until he bites the agitator very hard, he's going to be strangled until he's nearly dead.  This is what I believe was part of Steve's regimen of dog training and if he was still training today, he'd be doing it regularly. 

It's almost universal that table trainers build their tables indoors, where a casual passer-by can't observe their training.  Sometimes, as in Steve's case, they build a special building around the table where none existed before.  Sometimes they have a building and put the table inside of it.  When I've asked Steve the reason for this he's said that it's so that the wooden equipment (the table) is protected from the weather.  Of course this is absurd, a coat of paint will give the protection that's needed.  Consider the relative cost of painting a few square feet of wood to that erecting a building.  Won't that building need protection from the weather as well?  Another response is it that will enable the equipment to be used during inclement weather.  Steve lives in Florida, where there's little "really" inclement weather.  Yes, hurricanes blow through but they're rarely more than an inconvenience and probably his area has not suffered any major damage for decades.  In any case, dogs trained to bite, whether for sport work such as SchH, for police work, or for the military work in all weather.  Competitions that test those dogs are held in all weather.  The police and military dogs go to work, no matter what the weather.  And let's not forget that many clubs of many kinds have wooden agility obstacles that are left outside for years.  This "protection from the weather" excuse is just so much nonsense. 

The real reason that these tools are used indoors is to prevent anyone from seeing the torture that the dogs are subjected to. 

What is my evidence of accusing Steve of this form of abuse?  Steve tells us that he learned table training from a very successful (many titles to his name) trainer that I won't drag into this.  Years back Steve told people on a forum (during one of his personal attacks on me) that I had accused this trainer of abusing dogs as I've described above.  I'd never done so and Steve, with his vast collection of my emails and articles has never been able to back up that claim. 

I phoned that trainer who described Steve as "a bit of a nut" and "a different kind of person" and told him that I'd never said anything of the sort, that since I hadn't seen him train, that I couldn't and wouldn't make that accusation.  I did say that people I know and trust have told me that THEY HAVE seen him do this.  (Strangle dogs on the training table).  He got very quiet and replied, (to the effect), "Well we've all done things in our past that we wouldn't do today."  My 29+ years of law enforcement experience tells me that this is an admission that he had, in fact, strangled dogs on the training table, that he now knew it was the wrong thing to do and that he wouldn't do it again.  Since Steve tells us that he emulates this man, at times engaging in near-hero worship of him, it's reasonable to believe that he too, has repeatedly strangled dogs on the table. 

I've asked Steve if he's ever strangled dogs on the table and his response has either been to ignore the question or to demand that I prove that he has if I'm going to make that accusation.  But I'm an eternal optimist so it's worth a try again.

Steve, have you ever strangled a dog on the training table? 
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Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com
k9media
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« Reply #1211 on: Today at 04:50 PM »

Lou, point made an accepted. I have tried to be clear as crystal in my previous post. The next person to call another poster an animal abuser is gone. Really is as simple as that.
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Kerriebaby
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« Reply #1212 on: Today at 04:52 PM »

OMG, I have just read that,  Twisted Evil :twisted:and I am nearly crying. Those poor dogs  Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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It is better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Denis_Carthy
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« Reply #1213 on: Today at 04:57 PM »

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K9Media answered a question-
I honestly don't think there is a large enough groundswell of support for a ban either judging by feedback we get to our magazine.

That’s supports feedback from around the sites earlier this year when APDT and others tried to get support for a ban by promoting KC’s campaign, below are the figures.

They also support my constant comments that the activists are minority radical extremists, some online names already given a couple of posts ago.
++++++++++++++++++++

In 2006 A UK Internet dog forum survey was carried out testing the opinions for support or lack of support for a ban on e-collars by Kennel Club/APDT supporters.

Five of the main UK pet dog forums were chosen to test opinion for banning E-collars. The membership of the five forums was 46,420 the total figures who wanted a ban is 28 verifiable at the links below.

For a ban = 28

Against a ban. =  47458
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1.

Dogpages forums

Membership = 22330

Members for a ban = app 7

Verifiable figures, site appeal for ban link.
http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=96348&st=20

2.

Champdogs Forums.

Membership = app 17000

Members for a ban = 4

Verifiable figures, site appeal for ban link.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=684415;hl=ban%20shock%20collars;hlm=and#pid684415

3.

Dog Club Forums - 3913

Membership = 3691

Want a ban = app 8

Verifiable figures, site appeal for ban link..
http://www.dogclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3504.0

4.
D is for dog forums.

Membership =  197

Want a ban = 2

One posters MP said:
I already filled it in posted it back and had a reply back to which the mp said she understands my concwern but are not going to try and do anything about it.”

Verifiable figures, site appeal for ban link..
http://dfordog.com/forums/index.php?s=f68af4383dea2e46b9e0326b413b03eb&showtopic=617

5.
Dogweb forums

Membership = 4,021

Want a ban = 7

Verifiable figures, site appeal for ban link.

‘The Magnificent Seven’
http://www.dogweb.co.uk/dog-news.php?t=37868

Total combined membership on = 46448

For a ban = 28

Against a ban. = 47458

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k9media
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« Reply #1214 on: Today at 05:00 PM »

If there was an option for 'don't know what an e-collar is' I think those results would be different. As has already been speculated in this thread I don't think the majority of Britain's 6m+ dog owners know or care about e-collars.
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