Working Dog Forum

Steve Leigh · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: Table Training

Hello All,

My name is Steve Leigh, I ran a dog training business for 21 years, beginning in 1981.

In 1991, Gene England invented table training. Within a few weeks, I built a 1000 sq. ft. room for tables.

I used tables constantly from 1991 to 2002. I've trained well over 1000 dogs on tables (under contract), and tested/worked ~ 5000 more dogs.

For those of you wallowing in utter confusion, TABLES ARE NOTHING. They're inert wooden/metal pieces of equipment - which rely 100% on what the "helper" chooses to do or not do.

Consider this concept: tables are NOT tables - they're ecollars. Anyone who desires can get their hands on them. What they DO with them is the entire issue.

***MOD EDIT***

Steve Leigh

Connie Sutherland · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject:

QUOTE: Anyone who desires can get their hands on them. What they DO with them is the entire issue. END

Good point, IMO, and one that's probably true of every training tool in existence.

P.S. Welcome!

Mike Schoonbrood · Adult Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 638 Location: Orlando, FL

Welcome to the forum Steve, I've viewed your website many times in the past Smile

Now, since this is a touchy subject for some people, I don't have to tell everyone to keep it civil (people civil not dog civil Laughing

), so no name calling or slander, just good quality discussion. I'm hoping that perhaps this thread can educate those of us who know little about table training and perhaps become a reference for those who don't know what it's all about... whatever the consensus will be.
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Selena van Leeuwen · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject:

Oke, seen the vids and didn´t read the other **** edit to my own post: also mods have to stay civil...helaas...rare jongens die amerikanen.. ( Rolling Eyes

geezzz pleazzz let both sides get a live...). For me this use of the table is like the one Jerry and Gregg discribed in the other thread, just another way to agitate, like poal(?) work..nothing wrong with this..just like I said in the other topic.

Jerry Lyda · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject:

I've seen them and what do you mean by (wrecked ) ???
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Jerry L. Lyda
www.qualityk9concepts.com

Woody Taylor · Moderator Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 467

Jerry Lyda · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject:

I thought so too. What I saw looked good to me. Laughing

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www.qualityk9concepts.com

Steve Leigh · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject:

[quote="Jerry Lyda"]I've seen them and what do you mean by (wrecked ) ???[/quote]

As I've been accused of "wrecking dogs" ..... the term is pure sarcasm.

Steve Leigh · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject:

[quote="Jerry Lyda"]I thought so too. What I saw looked good to me. Laughing

[/quote]

My website analyzer shows every hit - including the videos.

I'm sorry to see that none of the table videos have been viewed today ....

I'm sincere - I'd like anyone, anywhere to watch them, and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I've even got one of my own 10 week old puppy - on the round table - biting AND outing on his 3rd session - with no corrections whatsoever.

I'm listening ........

Steve

Woody Taylor · Moderator Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 467

Selena van Leeuwen · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject:

Connie Sutherland · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Table Training

Steve Leigh · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: No Offense

I meant no offense to anyone by my messages.

Having lived and breathed tables for ~11 years, I admit I'm pretty well polarized in my opinions.

I didn't mean to challenge anyone. If my statements were taken that way, I apologize.

I feel that the more people that watch the videos, the less questions will arise.

Steve

Selena van Leeuwen · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject:

Oke Steve

David Frost · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 112 Location: TN

As is often said, opinions are like,....... well you get my drift, I certainly have mine and I stated it in the first thread. I think table training is counter-productive. A dog makes a choice from a list of one. Not much of a choice. Having limited choices can sure make a very unreliable dog. That may be ok for sport, but what I train for is not a sport. As for the "invention" of table training, I was introduced to it long before 1981 and I had never heard of the person you mentioned.

DFrost
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DFrost

Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.

Stacia Porter · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

I viewed your site and couldn't get past your sarcasm and genuine disdain for certain people long enough to understand your point. In fact, I don't think you made one.

I have a background in communications, specializing in interpersonal. If you have a message worth conveying, I would suggest you do it in a manner which does alienate your audience. You have a lot of experience on this topic; wouldn't it be more productive to simply discuss your experiences and ideology? I'm interested in that, but not in your dislike of a few individuals.

As for table training: I can see how it could be easier on the decoy. However, I have serious visions of my dog slipping and injuring himself. I don't think I'd let anyone put him on a table...Does it ever happen the dogs tries to avoid the situation and gets hurt? Or is that a moot point since a dog who is likely to avoid shouldn't be up on the table in the first place?
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Stacia, mom to
Abbie the beagle mix
Achilles the GSD
Andromeda the GSD
3 human kids
and a partridge in a pear tree

Jerry Lyda · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject:

My dog fell off the table but not from trying to get away but trying to get closer. He didn't get hurt.
Steve I DID view your videos and I liked what I saw. On this forum you are coming on strong and that's ok with me but maybe this isn't the place or the time to do it. (Pick your battles.)
Keep posting, we can learn from you and you can learn from us. No man has all the answers.
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Jerry L. Lyda
www.qualityk9concepts.com

Jose Alberto Reanto · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject:

Steve, been to your thread and the dogs look impressive indeed. Somehow you made your points clear to the most that you can. I just don't see why you have to be so sarcastic in dealing with people who disagrees with you. You see, no matter how you do things "right", there's always somebody somehow somewhere who's going to disagree with you, with or without good reason. You just have to start living with that. For as long as you and a lot others have benefitted from what you do, dwell on that and not what others think. That is, if you want to survive.

I work on tables, chairs, ladders, cans, CHBs, rubber tires, and whatever junk or structure I see and I had fantastic experience using them. The trust, bond, character and confidence building I generate from the dogs (which for me is the main purpose for training) are priceless. But then I am aware not all dogs are up to these, yet I don't call them bad dogs. I can't help people having a negative impression of the exercises we do no matter how good the results may be. Mostly these negative impressions are the complete opposite of what it really is. So who cares?

Best regards...
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The biggest obstacle you and your dog will ever face is.... YOU

Lou Castle · Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject:

Mr. England did not invent table training. He may have popularized it in this country in recent history but I've heard of dog trainers from Germany talking about using tables 40-50 years ago. It's probably older than that.

There are many forms of the table. It's used for bite work, actually there are a couple of different shapes it takes, it's used for OB work (especially with small dogs - to save the handler's back) and it's used for training the forced retrieve. There are probably other uses as well. One way it works is by limiting the dog's options.

Like any tool it can be used properly or it can be abused. When abused it takes the form of agitating a dog who really doesn't have what it takes to bite and when he fails to engage, the decoy knocks him off the table. The dog can't get back on it and he strangles. At the point where he's about to lose consciousness, he's helped back onto the table. If he still won't bite the decoy this is repeated until the dog learns that if he bites he doesn't get knocked off the table and he's spared from a near death experience by strangling.

I've never felt the need to use one.

But I do have one question. Why is that that tables used for bite work are always set up inside of buildings where a casual passer-by could not observe how they're being used? If nothing untoward happens, why not do it in the open? That's where most other forms of dog training take place.
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Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com

Jeff Oehlsen · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:42 am Post subject:

Steve, try and be nice here. I have seen you booted off too many boards for your over the top responses. Most of the time you quote a lot of credentials to people that are not nice posters. Please don't do that here.

The other thing that disturbs me is how much time you spent on your site just to make fun of Ed Frawley and Lou Castle. That is a bit scary. I don't care for how spastic Ed can get on his board, and Lou can really type up a storm for sure. I have talked to Lou, and really enjoyed the time that we talked. Never talked to Ed, but I would, even if he is a bit spastic in responses sometimes. Twisted Evil

Either way, I would never even think to put up pages and pages about another person no matter what I thought of them. Just wrong.

Now, having said all that, hope to hear some different ideas on all the stuff we talk about here. Just don't talk about table training. You are too spastic on that subject. Razz