Working Dog Forum

Jerry Lyda · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Defense table

Does anyone use a defence table? If so, what type of dog do you put on the table and at what age? If you don't use a defence table, what is it that you don't like about it? What are your likes and dislikes. How many people has never heard of it? Just curious.
_________________
Jerry L. Lyda
www.qualityk9concepts.com

Mike Schoonbrood · Adult Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 698 Location: Orlando, FL

I've never used a table before, but I'm not quite sure what to think about them. I've come accross a few trainers lately who have used tables and have no objection to them, but have never seen this type of training in person. I'm not quite sure how it differs from tying a dog to a post other than being able to have the decoy go lower than the table, so if you agree with post training then I don't quite see what the big deal is about a table... but I've read the Table Training article by Ed Frawley and even though he agrees with post and tie-out work, he disagrees strongly with table training.

I'd be interested in hearing the consensus to your question Jerry, it's a topic that much intrigues me, because I don't see how it's any different to working on the ground other than that you're elevating the dog to make them feel more superior... at least, that's how I understand it. There's others, such as Ed F I believe, who think of table training as a "tie em to a post on a table then beat the hell out of the dog till he bites" type tool, but the same could be done with post work, so I think it's more about the trainer using it as a tool than a specific style of training.
_________________
Cujo | Lÿka

Connie Sutherland · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Defence table

Connie Sutherland · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject:

I can't believe I had never heard of the world-famous site you link to, Woody!

Having read the world-famous disagreements in their original venues, I probably don't need to go too deeply into it, but I think it's hilarious that such a site exists.

Edited to say that the first Google return on "dogs, gerry howe" was
http://www.ratbags.com/ranters/howe010515.htm
Title: "Full Canvas Jacket Award - Jerry Howe, 15 May 2001"

I guess this is something of a hijack. Sorry, Jerry.

The discussion is defense table training.

Woody Taylor · Moderator Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 625

David Frost · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 145 Location: TN

I think "table training" is not only archaic, but counter-productive. In my opinion, it demonstrates a lack of skill and knowledge.

There, I've toned it down a bit, but I think you can get my drift that I'm not too much in favor.

DFrost
_________________
DFrost

Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.

Bob Scott · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

Woody Taylor · Moderator Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 625

Elly Elsenaar · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject:

Can anyone tell me exactly what table training is, may be when you explain I know what it is.

May be a stupid question.

Woody Taylor · Moderator Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 625

Bob Scott · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject:

My expierience in PPD and PSD is very limited compaired to many here. Giving much more then MY opinion wouldn't be totally based on expierienced.
That being said, IMHO, just about any dog can look like a great PPD when table trained in defence. It's all about creating a dog that has no choice but to fight. Purely fear based defence! That's not the dog I want at my side.....IF I were in need of a PPD or PSD.
Again, JMH inexpierienced O!

Elly Elsenaar · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject:

Oke I found it thanks!

Selena van Leeuwen · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject:

I don´t like the defense drive at all in a sports/workingdog. If this table increases the defense I surely don´t like the use of it. BUT I never saw anybody working it, nor a dog who is worked on it, so this is an subjective view.

David Frost · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 145 Location: TN

<<<I don´t like the defense drive at all in a sports/workingdog. If this table increases the defense I surely don´t like the use of it.>>>

Exactly my point. Now take a dog, put it in a position where the only option it has it to fight (you've taken away it's flight option) and what do you have. In my opinion, an unreliable, weak nerved disaster in the making. Even the old Nazi trainer I started with in 1966 (he really was an ex-nazi) thought it was cruel and that was one of the hardest men I've ever seen with a dog.

DFrost
_________________
DFrost

Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.

Al Curbow · Teething Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 60

Mike, wouldn't the major difference be that on a tie-out the dog can avoid if it wants to and then you'd know the dog can't or won't do the job (trainers don't evaluate dogs on tables, right?) the table seems like the dog can ONLY fight no matter what its temperament is. So, you can probably take a dog like my male (goofy A.J. ) and force him to bite when it's just not in his genetic make-up. He would only bite out of fear for his life, that's a fact, (he's a gentle, loveable ball freak) , as i'm typing this i'm thinking of 2 dogs that i've met that will bite for real in any situation and neither one would need a table to get'em to mix it up Laughing

Don't you guy's think that a dog that needs to be table trained is not cut out for protection work?
_________________
Dogs help make life nice

Woody Taylor · Moderator Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 625

Mike Schoonbrood · Adult Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 698 Location: Orlando, FL

Al, unless the decoy runs circles around the table chasing the dog that's avoiding the decoy... much like chasing a dog around a post that's tied to a post, then the dog can still avoid the fight, he's just on a shorter line, but still has movement 360* around the table.

That said, I don't know enough about table training to have an opinion other than basing it on Ed F's article that I linked above -- but I have heard table training described differently too, so the big Question

is "Which is right?". Obviously most people view table training the same way Mr Frawley does, as is witnessed in this thread... but take a look at people like Mike Diehl, alotta people say he's a good trainer right?

Watch this video:
http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/K9SZEMBITEBOX.wmv

He calls it the "Bite Box".... looks worse than a table to me, the dog has no escape left/right/around like on a table, he's on a short line, can't turn around, n walls left/right of him... but this is a young dog, the dog is being worked without being challenged, so is this form of training acceptable if the decoys job is done properly? Or is Mike Diehl perhaps not as good a trainer as I had originally heard?

Selena -- what is your definition of defense? How do your dogs work if they don't work in defense when a man is threatening them? I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but I've always learnt that you work a dog in prey for foundation (play/side to side/run away bites/the dog wants to catch the sleeve as a prey toy), then later you also work on defensive training (the decoy comes to the dog full on, no side to side, straight at the dog, decoy threatens the dog, stares the dog down, psychological pressure) -- the dogs demeanor changes, a dog barking in defense has a deeper more serious bark, a dog barking in prey tends to have a higher pitch "please give me the sleeve!!" type bark. Now, I know that a dog that is 100% prey with no defensive drives can still bite, they just don't realize so much that they are being threatened, n all their biting is done because they love to bite, n they bite a human arm because they don't care what they bite -- but a civil dog is a dog who will take defensive pressure and want to bite the man, not the equipment... this is different from a dog who doesn't care what they bite as long as they are biting. So what drive are your dogs in when someone is threatening their life trying to kill the dog in a police apprehension? Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, you probably know better than I do -- but I've never met a trainer who doesn't work their dog defensively when training for police work. Even in Schutzhund, a deep defensive bark sounds better barking in the blind than a high pitched whiney prey bark, my GSD is notorious for his annoying high pitched bark Laughing

I'm just fueling discussion here, I don't have any solid opinion one way or the other on table training Razz

_________________
Cujo | Lÿka

Jerry Lyda · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject:

OK here goes. The table used correctly is a great devise as is the prong collar. I do use it and I don't think it is counter productive. I do use it differently than what most of you think that it is being used. I don't make the dog think he has no option other than to fight. I start a dog off on the table that don't even look like the ones in those videos. The table I use is about three feet tall and it's four foot square with a pole in the middle. I use a blind to hide behind. I act very suspicious. I'll stick my head out as I tap on the blind, when I get a bark I'll go back into hiding. I will continue to build from there. The handler will stan beside the dog with a loose leash attached to a prong collar. When I go back into hiding he will lift, very camly, the leash straight up and say sit. Then we start all over again.
The dog is put into defence very very slowly and he don't know it's even being done. When you get dogs that can't get past the first part then they don't do it anymore. Those dogs can't handle it. With the other dogs you progress more and more. To them it is no different than being on the ground BUT being up high it does make them feel superior. As you prgress with these dogs they know that you can't bully them and they love this table work. They will run to the table to get on.
Like it or not it is a great training tool and it's easier on the decoy. This is also a great place to teach the out and the hold and bark if that is what you want to do. Dogs that won't make it on the table won't make it on the ground either. If you saw it used correctly you may have a different opinion.
_________________
Jerry L. Lyda
www.qualityk9concepts.com

Mike Schoonbrood · Adult Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 698 Location: Orlando, FL

Jerry, that is exactly how my trainer explained it to me, which is why I was torn between the various opinions on table training. The way you describe it, and the way that my trainer explained it to me (he doesn't have the tables so I have never seen it done) makes perfect sense, but the strong opposition against the tables is what gives me 2nd thoughts. Like I said, if it's done right (something like what you're talking about) then I don't see how it's different from a dog on the ground... now, if the decoy runs at a dog waving a stick threatening to kill the poor thing, I could see it being negative.... but you can be just as abusive on the ground. The superiority the dog feels from standing over the decoy makes more sense to me than instilling stress in the dog from being off the ground, because even when working on the ground, when a decoy falls over from a dogs bite it's a HUGE confidence builder... so towering over the decoy in a dominant position on a table should be more effective, right?
_________________
Cujo | Lÿka

Tim Martens · Young Dog Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 212

i've never seen it done in person. a trainer who i greatly respect uses it. i'll try and get him to post on it....
_________________
if it ain't dutch, it ain't much...