Working Dog Forum Forum Index Working Dog Forum
Working Dog Discussion for PPD, Sport and K9
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Defense table
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Working Dog Forum Forum Index -> Training Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Stacia Porter
Adolescent


Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: Hickory, NC

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff Oehlsen wrote:
Funny, every once in a while, there are dogs out here in sportland that are given away that would be more than enough for depts. I know a lot of sport people that wouldn't do it because of the rabid table training/new cop handler stuff. Not so often, but occasionally I run across dogs that aren't wierd or screwed up. If I do, maybe you can use them. Just pay the shipping if you like the darn thing. That might help.

Most people know I am piss poor, and have no concept of money. Well, have the concept, it's just not that important. Ethics are a bit more important to me. I definately could take peoples money, but in the end, I would rather have a packed house at my funeral, than money now. Call me weirdo. Smile


Awww Jeff that bordered on sentiment! First you post nutrition information, now you're gettinng all mushy on us? Are you going soft? Wink

FWIW, there is more than one story about rescued shepherds going into law enforcement. It's amazing what people will just "throw away." In fact, there is a LEO in VA (I think, don't hold me to that) who uses only rescued dogs!
_________________
Stacia, mom to
Abbie the beagle mix
Achilles the GSD
Andromeda the GSD
3 human kids
and a partridge in a pear tree
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
David Frost
Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 145
Location: TN

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<How much leeway does a Police dept give a trainer to dump a dog? This is what I would like to hear about.>>

Jeff, since I've already given my response on "table training" which is similar to yours, only less wordy, I thought I'd touch on this particular question. It had to be answered in two parts.

Part 1. In my experience, departments with larger canine sections, on-staff trainers such as ours have absolute power to "dump a dog". Having said that however, it's important to point out, they(the training staff) also select the dog prior to procurement. If purchased from a reputable vendor it will have a guarantee as to health and "trainability". Generally speaking, prior to procurement, the trainer (s) have researched the vendor talked to references etc. As you can imagine, once you've selected a dog, you certainly feel more of an obligation and sense of personal responsibility to train it. The good vendors will, on occasion, take back a dog that the trainer(s) say in not suitable, even though they may disagree, because thier reputation is more important than a disagreement on training style.

Part 2. Departments without a canine training staff are often at the mercy of a vendor. They buy a trained dog, the officer recieves a minimum of training. Often times the handler, be default becomes the resident expert on canine within his department. Training opportunities are limited and often with a department in the same situation. The leeway to dump a dog in this situation is tentative at best. It is often times directed by management because of a bad bite or poor performance.

DFrost
_________________
DFrost

Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Matt Hammond
Puppy


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Southern US

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO most (and I say this loosely) that do not like table training have never seen table training they just hear how abusive it CAN be and form an option. BUT these are the same folks that will use a back tie. IT is the same thing! Just off the ground. If a helper/decoy puts dogs in a situation where they jump off the table and hang them selves or the bust an anal gland to me you have a problem with your helper not the table. If the helper does not know how to use the table then he can destroy a good dog if he does know how to use a table then he can really bring some good stuff out.

I have had departments down here with dogs that they just could not get to out, e-collars, choking, beating they have tried it all, I put that same dog on the table with a short lead hook to a prong under the dogs chin and work the out I usually can get the dog to start to out in 2-5 bites. It is not magic you just have to know what you are doing. Now I am sure I could achieve the same thing on the ground but now you have to factor in handler error, timing and good old Murphy. Just take all those out of the training session and you have a dog that outs and understands the command of out now. Now tricks no smoke and mirrors just good old fashion dog training. Jerry and I have done in a million times, and every time we do it I am more amazed that others are to closed minded to try this.

Some people have a lot of influence in the dog world and I will not name names, but he busts out and says that table training is for Fat lazy helpers and it is abusive and the rest of the world jumps on his wagon. You can always learn something new, it doesn’t matter how long you have been in the game no one knows it all. I had a trainer from Virginia come pick up some dogs, He was very skeptical of the table and the way he heard it is used. I took a 12 month old puppy put him on the table and had him doing a out and guard in a few minutes. Like I have said before if it is used right then it can be great, if not then it can hurt your dog like everything. Look at Wallace Payne and his dog “pedro” he won the nationals this year and is in the world team for Schutzhund, How does his dog get worked and cleaned up….on a table.

The only thing two trainers will ever agree on is that the third one doesn't know what he is talking about.
_________________
When people get scared they call the police...When the police get scared they call K-9!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Andres Martin
Puppy


Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 29
Location: El Salvador

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the opinions so far have been oriented towards the fact that table training is exclusively a defense/fight stimulation tool. That is not so. A dog that has good prey drive will do well on a table. Shallow biters particularly.

Points to consider:
1) A table is no big deal.
2) Movement restriction is no big deal.
3) A dog is first "socialized" to the table...or should be, so the table itself doesn't hinder learning.
4) The table is not ONLY elevation. It is also AN EDGE. Dogs will bite down MUCH harder as they approach the edge. (It's the same thing if you guys are training off the back of a pick up truck, or car jacking scenarios, etc.) If dogs are consistently rewarded when they bite down hard, it will become a desirable conditioned response.
5) Elevations, slippery surfaces, the dark, the unknown... all exacerbate dog's responses to threats. A table is no different, and just as with the aforementioned can be successfully used (or not) to promote intensity.

Just like everything else...if you don't know when, with which dog, and how to use a particular tool...not only do you run the risk of ruining a dog, but more commonly of simply not progressing. IMO, there are almost no absolutes.

Someone that knows how to read a dog will cause far less stress to a dog using a table ocasionally to develop the bite, THAN TEACHING A FORCED RETRIEVE!

Anyone who stresses a dog to the point of shut down is ignorant and compassionless...whether on a table or anywhere else.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kristen Cabe
Young Dog


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 218
Location: Asheville, North Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I got Jak, I was presented with the opportunity to get a puppy from a guy that breeds and trains German shepherds specifically for police departments. I asked how he trained his dogs, and I admit, when I heard the words "then I put them up on a table," I actually stopped listening to the man and basically wrote him off on the spot. This was over a year ago, and the views on table training on the board I belonged to then had me CONVINCED that table training was cruel and inhumane, and resulted in a dog that when presented with a real threat, might choose to flee rather than fight, given that he then had the option to do so. Sad

I won't say that I dread it now, looking back, because I think I have a good dog now; but I do feel like it may have been a good opportunity missed. I wanted a dog for personal protection, and this guy trains dogs for police departments, and has done so for MANY years, so he obviously knows what he's doing. Instead, when I heard the word table, rather than asking more questions, I decided I didn't want to even go out and meet the man and see his dogs or watch him train. Then I bought a dog for over $1000 more from someone who trains primarily for sport. All because of the opinions of one man.
_________________
Running T's Jak - Pedigree
Learn how to live healthier! Visit my web site at http://www.herbal-nutrition.net/members/klcabe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Thomas Barriano
Puppy


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Gene England Reply with quote

I was fortunate enough to attend two workshops with Gene England. one
in New Mexico and one in Colorado. Tabel training is one of the most
missunderstood and abused tools in dog training. The strong negative opinions from people who have never even seen one being used. amaze me.
The square table (wrongly called defense table) is a confidence builder.
Gene would hide behind a blind and play peak a boo, When the dog
gave the desired response it was rewarded. He would also have the
dog turn on and turn off. He'd make eye contact the dog would alert,
he went neutral and the dog would turn off. The dogs were neer worked in
defense. The dogs could reach the ground wiith their back feet, no dogs
were hung up. No dogs were pushed off the table.
The reason tables are usually found in buildings (not out in the open)
isn't because anyone is trying to hide anything, it is because a good table is hard to build and not exactly portable. It isn't something you can drag
out to the training field or that you'd want to leave out in the weather ot
rust and warp.
_________________
Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa \"DoDah\" Germania (BD 11/05/99) SchH III IPO III Mondio Ring
Brevet AKC WDM III CD CGC WAC ATT TT
Ascomannis Jago (BD 06/20/03) Dodah Son SchH I ATT WAC YTT CGC
Belatucadrus (BD 08/14/05) Dutch Boy
Devona (BD 05/07/05) Dutch Girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Connie Sutherland
Moderator


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 1242
Location: North-Central Coast of California

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Gene England Reply with quote

Thomas Barriano wrote:
I was fortunate enough to attend two workshops with Gene England.......


Do you agree with this opinion (expressed by a couple of police trainers I watch work, and who were gracious enough to review with me, frame by frame, the few table-training videos we were able to round up): "Very few trainers have the ability of Gene England to read a dog well enough to do what he does."

Also, a well-known PPD trainer maintains that "There is nothing about table work that can't be done by a good trainer with a back-tied dog on the ground just as well, without the danger of injury."

I'm asking sincerely for opinions on these beliefs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas Barriano
Puppy


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Gene England Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
Thomas Barriano wrote:
I was fortunate enough to attend two workshops with Gene England.......


Do you agree with this opinion (expressed by a couple of police trainers I watch work, and who were gracious enough to review with me, frame by frame, the few table-training videos we were able to round up): "Very few trainers have the ability of Gene England to read a dog well enough to do what he does."

ABsolutely Smile Gene is the MAN. Unfortunatley Gene isn't doing as much
dog training as he used to.

Also, a well-known PPD trainer maintains that "There is nothing about table work that can't be done by a good trainer with a back-tied dog on the ground just as well, without the danger of injury."


I disagree with that. The dogs perspective is different, three feet off the
ground. There is LESS danger of injury to both decoy and dog with a table
The decoy knows how far the dog can go more accurately on a table
than on the ground. The decoy is more erect (face to face) not bend over and off balance. The trick (IMO) is a properly designed table where the
dogs back feet can reach the ground and he can't get hung up. The swivel
must work properly. I think the lower round table iis better for most bite work.

I'm asking sincerely for opinions on these beliefs.

_________________
Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa \"DoDah\" Germania (BD 11/05/99) SchH III IPO III Mondio Ring
Brevet AKC WDM III CD CGC WAC ATT TT
Ascomannis Jago (BD 06/20/03) Dodah Son SchH I ATT WAC YTT CGC
Belatucadrus (BD 08/14/05) Dutch Boy
Devona (BD 05/07/05) Dutch Girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lou Castle
Teething


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregg Tawney wrote:
Most of the time the suspect lays there motionless. For a young dog this can be difficult. the odor of the suspect is different.


Just an aside, and I'm probably taking something out of context, but how is the odor of a stationary person different from that of a moving one? And in either case, how does this make it more difficult for a dog to bite?

Gregg Tawney wrote:
The table does put some environmental stress on the dog. This can help with channeling the dog into fight/defense


It's probably just a difference in how we train or semantics, but I almost never use defense.

Are your tables out in the open or do you have them indoors?

Jerry Lyda wrote:
We've all seen weak dogs and we know that this dog will not benefit by this training. BUT IF you start this weak dog off right he can overcome some of his problems.


He's till going to be a weak dog. Except for learning purposes, I don't see the point. Not saying it's wrong or that it's not right for you.

Same question I asked of Gregg, are your tables outdoors?

Gregg Tawney wrote:
Those dogs are not police prospects. There are some dogs that have fight/defense but are insecure in that drive and by giving the dog some "wins" in that drive then they become stronger as a result.


This clears up my question about why this is done. What is being done with these dogs?

Jeff Oehlsen wrote:
For the most part I don't have any need to tap into defence this way. Honestly, I would scrap a dog that needed something like this


Perhaps I've never used a table because I was almost always able to select the dogs that I trained.

Jeff Oehlsen wrote:
although keep in mind that if I was training a dog that was to be someones PSD, I would probably get fired for all the dogs I would reject. To me, I want the guy to get home at the end of the day.


That was always my motivation too.

Connie Sutherland wrote:
They both call it "lazy man's training."


I'm not fond of this transition. As has been said, the table in an inanimate object. It may be abused more than it is used properly but that's not the fault of the table. Abuse or misuse is always on the trainer. I'll suggest that the people in this thread are not part of that problem.

Jeff Oehlsen wrote:
How much leeway does a Police dept give a trainer to dump a dog?


Varies from department to department. It's more dependent on the admins than the trainer.

The only dog that I ever dumped was a dog that was selected when I was out of the program. He tried to run the first time I ever raised my hand to him. How he made it past the weeding-out process of others, I'll never know.

For the most part, departments with in-house trainers can get rid of a dog much easier than those who rely on an outside vendor.

Matt Hammond wrote:
IMO most (and I say this loosely) that do not like table training have never seen table training they just hear how abusive it CAN be and form an option. BUT these are the same folks that will use a back tie. IT is the same thing!


Well, not really. You can knock a dog off the table and have him strangle if he refuses to bite. You really can't do that on the ground. I believe that you said that your table isn't tall enough to do that with so I wonder why you bother with the table?

Matt Hammond wrote:
I have had departments down here with dogs that they just could not get to out, e-collars, choking, beating they have tried it all, I put that same dog on the table with a short lead hook to a prong under the dogs chin and work the out I usually can get the dog to start to out in 2-5 bites.


I do the same thing with an Ecollar at low stim levels in about 20 minutes. An Ecollar is much more portable.

Matt Hammond wrote:
Now I am sure I could achieve the same thing on the ground but now you have to factor in handler error, timing and good old Murphy.


Why? Why can't the dog be backtied and have the handler stand alongside him?

Matt Hammond wrote:
Jerry and I have done in a million times, and every time we do it I am more amazed that others are to closed minded to try this.


Not a matter of being closed minded. I just don't see the reason to bother with building or carrying around a table.

Matt Hammond wrote:
Some people have a lot of influence in the dog world and I will not name names, but he busts out and says that table training is for Fat lazy helpers and it is abusive and the rest of the world jumps on his wagon.


Just because some people share an opinion doesn't mean that they've jumped on someone else's wagon.

Thomas Barriano wrote:
I was fortunate enough to attend two workshops with Gene England.


A while back I spoke to Mr. England on the phone. Someone had told him that I'd said that he'd hung dogs off his tables. I wanted to let him know that I hadn't made that statement. He responded, "We've all done things in the past that we wouldn't do today." I took that as an admission that he had indeed hung dogs off his tables. Can anyone suggest what else he may have meant?

Thomas Barriano wrote:
The reason tables are usually found in buildings (not out in the open) isn't because anyone is trying to hide anything, it is because a good table is hard to build and not exactly portable. It isn't something you can drag out to the training field or that you'd want to leave out in the weather ot rust and warp.


I find it rather odd that most agility obstacles are made of wood, they're not very portable and aren't something that can be "dragged out to the training field" at least not without a lot of work' yet they're typically left outside. Some have lasted for decades. Most houses in the US are built of wood and some have managed to survive for a couple of centuries. It's amazing what a little paint and some occasional maintenance will do to prevent "rusting and warping!"

Let's not ignore the obvious. The reason that most tables are built and kept indoors is so that abusive trainers can work unobserved.
_________________
Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Connie Sutherland
Moderator


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 1242
Location: North-Central Coast of California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou's post does cover a lot of ground (or table).

I still wonder about a couple of things:

About Thomas's post:

For the purpose of this discussion, would anyone mind if we limit the physical danger/benefits to the dog?

With that in mind, what is the physical-risk benefit to the dog (you mention both decoy *and* dog)?

and

When you say "The dog's perspective is different," does that mean that yes, the table (the height) is meant to make the dog feel more threatened or stressed than on the ground?

If not, then what is the different perspective's advantage?

About several posts:

There seem to be very very few recent (and even not-recent) videos available (which seems to fuel the idea of secrecy), but I did watch some, and I saw only one low (2') table.

What is the reality? Has the low table (obviously far less risky to the dog) taken over?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Connie Sutherland
Moderator


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 1242
Location: North-Central Coast of California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, Lou's remark about abuse or misuse of the table:

QUOTE: I'll suggest that the people in this thread are not part of that problem. END

would appear to be a reasonable assumption, from the posts.

That is probably what's keeping the thread civil. Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tim Martens
Young Dog


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou Castle wrote:
Gregg Tawney wrote:
Most of the time the suspect lays there motionless. For a young dog this can be difficult. the odor of the suspect is different.


Just an aside, and I'm probably taking something out of context, but how is the odor of a stationary person different from that of a moving one? And in either case, how does this make it more difficult for a dog to bite?


i'm sure you've heard about the chemicals secreted by the body in "fight or flight" situations or the "scent of fear". while a conscious, motionless suspect is still secreting these it is far less than if they were running or actively resisting. there was an interesting article i read a couple of years ago about quantities of signature odors. the article dealt with explosives. i forget the amount, but the people who did the research found that the signature odor of the explosive changed at a certain amount (it was like 2 kg) which explains why dogs who have only been trained with small amounts of drugs or explosives have a difficult time alerting on large quantities. i think this might be what gregg is talking about.

i believe what he meant to say was difficult for the dog was the motionless aspect and not necessarily the difference in odor.

Lou Castle wrote:
A while back I spoke to Mr. England on the phone. Someone had told him that I'd said that he'd hung dogs off his tables. I wanted to let him know that I hadn't made that statement. He responded, "We've all done things in the past that we wouldn't do today." I took that as an admission that he had indeed hung dogs off his tables. Can anyone suggest what else he may have meant?


no i cannot suggest what else he may have meant as i didn't hear the ENTIRE conversation, but i can surely see the picture you are trying to paint.

Lou Castle wrote:
Let's not ignore the obvious. The reason that most tables are built and kept indoors is so that abusive trainers can work unobserved.


this has been addressed. i don't think there is a need to call those people liars. there is a difference in the way the weather affects a plank versus a large piece of plywood that is parallel to the ground. warping is much more of a concern to a large piece of plywood. a jump window is made of plywood you say? ah yes, but it is upright and standing water pooling on top of it isn't a concern. you can see that can't you?
_________________
if it ain't dutch, it ain't much...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Woody Taylor
Moderator


Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martens wrote:

Lou Castle wrote:
Let's not ignore the obvious. The reason that most tables are built and kept indoors is so that abusive trainers can work unobserved.


this has been addressed. i don't think there is a need to call those people liars. there is a difference in the way the weather affects a plank versus a large piece of plywood that is parallel to the ground. warping is much more of a concern to a large piece of plywood. a jump window is made of plywood you say? ah yes, but it is upright and standing water pooling on top of it isn't a concern. you can see that can't you?


I guess I don't get this argument either, although I think Lou makes a great deal of sense everywhere else. I would think the majority of us have to be discrete about some of our training. Would any of you wear a bite suit, crack a whip, and take a bite from a friend's dog in your own front yard? My house is next to a school bus stop, I can tell you what would happen. Even describing how I establish leadership to regular folks (like I did last Wednesday) sounds rough. Lots of tools you all use "look" abusive. Tying out a dog to a post and agitating it would look very weird to me if I didn't know what I was seeing.

I understand where you are coming from on this, Lou, and table training (from what I have seen online) does look pretty medieval...but so do prongs...and ecollars sound very tough to many people (as you know better than me).

Anyways, great discussion! Keep going!
_________________
Defending n00bs everywhere since March 2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Connie Sutherland
Moderator


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 1242
Location: North-Central Coast of California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woody Taylor wrote:
.......I understand where you are coming from on this, Lou, and table training (from what I have seen online) does look pretty medieval...but so do prongs...and ecollars sound very tough to many people (as you know better than me).

Anyways, great discussion! Keep going!


This reminds me (again) of how extremely difficult it was for me to round up videos of table training. I saw several of dogs who were strictly in *prey* drive, yes. But bringing out defense with table-training -- well, those videos were really few and far between. I see what Tim and Woody are saying about the valid reasons for tables being under cover (indoors), but what is the reason for the dearth of videos?

For example, are there videos of Gene England? I couldn't find any.

Several posters here and elsewhere have complained that people express opinions on the subject without having actually seen an expert do it, but I found out that it's not so easy to see an expert do it, not the way you can find videos of every other type of training.

This may have a strong reason behind it (like maybe Mr. England doesn't want amateurs to get all excited about it without having the skill or experience necessary?), but that's what I'm asking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas Barriano
Puppy


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Gene England Reply with quote

Quote:
For the purpose of this discussion, would anyone mind if we limit the physical danger/benefits to the dog? I say this only becauuse I think everyone is well aware of the physical benefits to the human, and because this one aspect taints a lot of the opinions, I think...... the idea that the table is meant to benefit the human who might have back problems or maybe a little extra weight, and that maybe it's at the expense of the dog's safety.

With that in mind, what is the physical-risk benefit to the dog (you mention both decoy *and* dog)?


Hi Connie

Height = power simplistic, but accurate. dogs feel more powerfull when
they can look the decoy (or another dog) in the eye. or look down on him Of course you have
to allow for familiarization to the new environment. The table limits the
dogs movement and options. Of course if you put the dog in defense and
don't give it the option of flight, you can easily ruin a dog. Of the hours of
high table work I saw Gene do, over two seminars. There was NO/ZERO
defense work done

Quote:
There seem to be very very few recent (and even not-recent) videos available (which seems to fuel the idea of secrecy), but I did watch some, and I saw only one low (2') table.

What is the reality? Has the low table (obviously far less risky to the dog) taken over?


The reality unfortunately, is very few people do table work anymore and
even fewer do it right Sad

Quote:
I quote the same well-known PPD trainer here:
QUOTE: The theory of table training was to bring out defense, usually in a dog that wouldn't/ couldn't show defense at ground level (because it wasn't feeling threatened enough). END QUOTE


That maybe the way PPD trainers use it, but it sure the He11, ian'r the
way Gene uses it Smile

Quote:
When you say "The dog's perspective is different," does that mean that yes, the table (the height) is meant to make the dog feel more threatened or stressed than on the ground?


NO the exact opposite Smile

Quote:
If not, then what is the different perspective's advantage?\


See above
_________________
Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa \"DoDah\" Germania (BD 11/05/99) SchH III IPO III Mondio Ring
Brevet AKC WDM III CD CGC WAC ATT TT
Ascomannis Jago (BD 06/20/03) Dodah Son SchH I ATT WAC YTT CGC
Belatucadrus (BD 08/14/05) Dutch Boy
Devona (BD 05/07/05) Dutch Girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lou Castle
Teething


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earlier I wrote: . . . how is the odor of a stationary person different from that of a moving one? And in either case, how does this make it more difficult for a dog to bite?

Tim Martens wrote:
i'm sure you've heard about the chemicals secreted by the body in "fight or flight" situations or the "scent of fear". while a conscious, motionless suspect is still secreting these it is far less than if they were running or actively resisting.


The byproducts and breakdown products of those chemicals are still present. I'd challenge anyone to show that they've diminished by any significant amount and even if they have that this diminishment affects the dog's scenting ability or their ability to detect it in the slightest. Dogs can pick this up from very long distances away. I've seen dogs respond "harder" in a 50,000' sq building if someone is present, even though they're hiding motionless.

Can I get a response from the person who made the statement please?

Tim Martens wrote:
there was an interesting article i read a couple of years ago about quantities of signature odors. the article dealt with explosives. i forget the amount, but the people who did the research found that the signature odor of the explosive changed at a certain amount (it was like 2 kg) which explains why dogs who have only been trained with small amounts of drugs or explosives have a difficult time alerting on large quantities. i think this might be what gregg is talking about.


At least one researcher, Fulton (I think it was Fulton) thinks that this is the case with human scent as well (not just fear scent). He proposes that there's something going on besides quantitatively with HRD (human remains detection). He's found that dogs trained on small amounts of HRD don't respond to the same to an intact human body. Sometimes they walk the scent completely with no body changes at all.

Dogs are capable of finding people who aren't emitting fear scent so I wouldn't think this is a significant difference.

Tim Martens wrote:
i believe what he meant to say was difficult for the dog was the motionless aspect and not necessarily the difference in odor.


I think so too but want to be sure.

Earlier I wrote: Let's not ignore the obvious. The reason that most tables are built and kept indoors is so that abusive trainers can work unobserved.

Tim Martens wrote:
this has been addressed. i don't think there is a need to call those people liars.


I didn't call anyone a liar. What is going on with you that you think that anyone that I disagree with I'm calling a liar?

I disagree with them and since I know that tables can be used for just about the worst kind of abuse possible in the name of dog training, I think they're wrong.

Tim Martens wrote:
there is a difference in the way the weather affects a plank versus a large piece of plywood that is parallel to the ground. warping is much more of a concern to a large piece of plywood.


Sort of like the top of a cat walk? Using marine plywood and then sealing and painting it completely eliminates any problems with warping.

Tim Martens wrote:
a jump window is made of plywood you say? ah yes, but it is upright and standing water pooling on top of it isn't a concern. you can see that can't you?


The edges of a piece of plywood are the real problem as far as rain and it's the edges of the plywood in a window jump where the water pools. But many people have built completely new structures just to house their tables. This seems a bit extreme if the only reason to do so is to protect it from the weather. Seems pretty cost INeffective to me. This strikes me as some pretty weak reasoning.

Ever seen any "Table Training videos" available for sale?

Woody Taylor wrote:
I would think the majority of us have to be discrete about some of our training. Would any of you wear a bite suit, crack a whip, and take a bite from a friend's dog in your own front yard?


Most of my training work was done in public parks in the town where I used to work and neighboring cities as well, when we'd train with outside agencies. We'd often draw a crowd. One particular park was in a residential neighborhood and we'd get people come out on their porches and sit in their swings and chairs and watch. When we stopped going there (we found a super location to train in) we got calls asking us to come back. Nowadays many of my seminars are done in public. Even the LE ones occasionally have civilian visitors. I don't have a problem doing any of the things you mention. My front yard is kinda small though and training there might interfere with traffic. LOL. I'm not one to care very much what the public thinks. If they have questions or complaints I'll be glad to address them.


Woody Taylor wrote:
table training (from what I have seen online) does look pretty medieval...but so do prongs...and ecollars sound very tough to many people


I use both prong collars and Ecollars in public just about every day. I don't think that there's any need to hide any legitimate training from the public. I still maintain that those who abuse dogs on tables do it indoors so the public can't see it and that's why there are few tables built outdoors.

I think the "protection from weather" argument is groundless and weak.

Thomas Barriano wrote:
Of the hours of high table work I saw Gene do, over two seminars. There was NO/ZERO defense work done


****** mod edit**********

Thomas Barriano wrote:
That maybe the way PPD trainers use it, but it sure the He11, ian'r the way Gene uses it


You mean that you didn't see it at the seminars you attended. Based on his statement to me, I doubt that he's doing it any more.
_________________
Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
Uncllou@aol.com
www.loucastle.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thomas Barriano
Puppy


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas Barriano wrote:
I was fortunate enough to attend two workshops with Gene England.


A while back I spoke to Mr. England on the phone. Someone had told him that I'd said that he'd hung dogs off his tables. I wanted to let him know that I hadn't made that statement. He responded, "We've all done things in the past that we wouldn't do today." I took that as an admission that he had indeed hung dogs off his tables. Can anyone suggest what else he may have meant?

Well I guess civility is losing ground Sad
I would suggest that when Gene has the courtesy to converse with a stranger (you) on the phone, that you npt take his general comments
out of context and attempt to "prove" a point. Gene is a good old boy
who says what he means. IF he had meant to admit that he had hung
dogs off of tables. That is exactly what he would have said..

Thomas Barriano wrote:
The reason tables are usually found in buildings (not out in the open) isn't because anyone is trying to hide anything, it is because a good table is hard to build and not exactly portable. It isn't something you can drag out to the training field or that you'd want to leave out in the weather ot rust and warp.


I find it rather odd that most agility obstacles are made of wood, they're not very portable and aren't something that can be "dragged out to the training field" at least not without a lot of work' yet they're typically left outside. Some have lasted for decades. Most houses in the US are built of wood and some have managed to survive for a couple of centuries. It's amazing what a little paint and some occasional maintenance will do to prevent "rusting and warping!"

Let's not ignore the obvious. The reason that most tables are built and kept indoors is so that abusive trainers can work unobserved.[/quote



ARRGGG. Very few Schutzhund clubs I train at, have their own field.
Well built tables are heavy. You can believe what ever you want.
_________________
Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa \"DoDah\" Germania (BD 11/05/99) SchH III IPO III Mondio Ring
Brevet AKC WDM III CD CGC WAC ATT TT
Ascomannis Jago (BD 06/20/03) Dodah Son SchH I ATT WAC YTT CGC
Belatucadrus (BD 08/14/05) Dutch Boy
Devona (BD 05/07/05) Dutch Girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tim Martens
Young Dog


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow. you must have a pretty wide catwalk. ours is only about 16 inches wide. tables for training are about what? 6 feet wide? like i said, you must have a pretty wide catwalk to compare it to that...

don't try to hide behind semantics. people here who use tables have given you their reasons for not keeping their tables outside and you continually come back with your "you don't want the public to see you abuse the dogs" rhetoric. while you may not have used the word "liar", you continue to not believe the reasons they give and pipe back your reasons. that isn't a disagreement. you choose to believe they aren't telling the truth. thus a defacto lie.
_________________
if it ain't dutch, it ain't much...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas Barriano
Puppy


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Adios Reply with quote

Thomas Barriano wrote:
Of the hours of high table work I saw Gene do, over two seminars. There was NO/ZERO defense work done


If I was abusing dogs on a table I wouldn't show it at a seminar either.

Thomas Barriano wrote:
That maybe the way PPD trainers use it, but it sure the He11, ian'r the way Gene uses it


You mean that you didn't see it at the seminars you attended. Based on his statement to me, I doubt that he's doing it any more.[/quote]

List members and owners

I have better things to do, than enter in another useless discussion with
***MOD EDIT***...throttle it down...[/Woody]. Gene England has trained more Police and sport
dogs (to V scores) than Mr. Castle has seen. If this board allows such
personal attacks on someone who isn't on the list? I don't want any part of it. I also have dogs to train.
_________________
Regards
Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa \"DoDah\" Germania (BD 11/05/99) SchH III IPO III Mondio Ring
Brevet AKC WDM III CD CGC WAC ATT TT
Ascomannis Jago (BD 06/20/03) Dodah Son SchH I ATT WAC YTT CGC
Belatucadrus (BD 08/14/05) Dutch Boy
Devona (BD 05/07/05) Dutch Girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Woody Taylor
Moderator


Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 625

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou, let's back off the conjecture on what Gene England may have once done.

Thomas, I do not like you using those words to describe Lou Castle. I understand the context and it won't be tolerated on the board.

Let's get it back on track, okay?
_________________
Defending n00bs everywhere since March 2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Working Dog Forum Forum Index -> Training Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 4 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group