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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
QUOTE: I said just that in the other thread on table training. That thread seems to have been deleted. END

No table-training thread has been deleted that I know of.

There were comments deleted on today's thread -- and that's it.



Here is the other thread on table-training:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=672&highlight=
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Lou Castle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
No table-training thread has been deleted that I know of.


Quite right Connie. I did a search for the starting author's name and it didn't turn up. I now realize that I put his name into the wrong box of the search engine. DUH!

In any case, in that thread I wrote, "Like any tool it can be used properly or it can be abused."
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Andres Martin
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much ado about nothing. 6 pages worth. Some of the posts are loooooooong due to quoting, and deriding the quote. That style is confrontational and personal. And unnecessary. I donīt post at the leerburg board any more because of that exact style.

I really like this board because of itīs easygoing style. Please donīt mess with that, by answering posts in "defense" or in a condescending way. It might be entertaining to some folks, but by and large, it does not stimulate diversity.

Letīs work hard to make a good thing great. I think we should strongly promote diversity by arguing the issue HARD, while being soft on the people.
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andres Martin wrote:
Much ado about nothing. 6 pages worth. Some of the posts are loooooooong due to quoting, and deriding the quote. That style is confrontational and personal. And unnecessary. I donīt post at Board X any more because of that exact style.


I don't think it's 6 pages of nothing. I think it's natural for threads to degenerate over time...probably the best indication of this is whether the original poster and other folks are still involved. They're not. So it may make sense for them to weigh in at this point. I will agree that the personal attacks are unnecessary...and that they are happening on both sides...but this is a pretty contentious issue that is, overall, being handled well and shedding insights...that would have been shut down at other board sites.

Quote:
I really like this board because of itīs easygoing style. Please donīt mess with that, by answering posts in "defense" or in a condescending way. It might be entertaining to some folks, but by and large, it does not stimulate diversity. Letīs work hard to make a good thing great. I think we should strongly promote diversity by arguing the issue HARD, while being soft on the people.


I agree 100%. Thanks for this post. Now...enough of the board talk about the boards! Back to mesa training.
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Andres Martin
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy Woody,

I mean "much ado about nothing" because table training is NO BIG DEAL. Sure it stresses a marginal dog more than if heīs on solid ground...but thatīs it. With care, youīll just develop whatever heīs got. If heīs got nothing but friendliness or insecurity, and heīs pressured on a table, on a back tie, or wherever...heīll move between shutdown and avoidance...and may bite, but youīll smell it because the anal glands blow, etc. etc. and he wonīt bite at a long distance. Note that the same will happen if you back tie that dog, or tie him up on the bed of your pick up truck. Heīll be wanting to flee. That dog should learn OBEDIENCE and PERHAPS an alert...and be a well socialized an well loved PET.

If youīre working a GOOD dog, a table wonīt phase him at all. Many dogs will bite on a roof top, in a dark and restricted closet, in a drainage pipe, in an attic, in water, etc. and those situations are FAR MORE STRESSFUL than a simple table.

People that use tables donīt use tables exclusively. And those that donīt use them well, donīt use them for long. Their customers get really pissed off, spread the word, and business declines.

Tables CAN develop intensity and harder bites...in spite of a mediocre decoy AND handler. They are simply EQUIPMENT.

Testing a police dog candidate...is done on a back tie, where movement is restricted, and a strong attempt is made to cause avoidance in the evaluee. Many, many donīt make the grade...and itīs not abusive...The dog gets built back up...and the owner gets an explanation regarding how to continue that dogīs career.

If a half assed trainer chooses to include a table as one of the chapters of a particular dogīs schooling curriculum, HE WILL NEVER ALLOW THAT DOG TO STRESS TO FULL AVOIDANCE as in a Police test. It takes TOO LONG and is not cost effective to turn that around and return a "trained dog" back to itīs owner.

Decoying a dog on a table is note NECESSARILY a lazy way to train...because decoying in training is not ALWAYS exhausting. Many times decoys must teach passive subject bites...and when doing that decoys donīt move (much) at all.

Itīs only lazy if the (bad) trainer uses a table as a shortcut to get a dog to bite because it canīt flee, and must fight. More people do that with dogs on the ground than on tables. More people screw dogs up by applying undue pressure at the wrong time on the ground.

Tables cost money...and few people will invest money if they canīt get their investmentīs worth. A leash and a tree are far cheaper.

And finally, unscrupulous trainers try to get "high" performance from "working" dogs by stressing them, regardless of what the DOG REALLY IS. This is primarily a money issue. Trainers in cahoots with breeders sometimes. In other words...BALANCED DOGS ARE HARD TO FIND. And titles donīt make it any easier.

Ooops, I lied. THIS is "FINALLY"...the cookie cutter approach to dog bite training is as follows: Teach a pup to bite a moving and jerking rag, reward him with the rag, change up the bite surfaces, increase opposition while strengthening the bite and the entry, include control, and optionally introduce defensive and fighting bites. This is easy to teach TO PEOPLE and easy to perform on a dog. Itīs cookie cutter because it works. It takes NO experience or subtlety. It works for most everyone. Itīs tiring because the decoy and handler need to run around with the dog either chasing the prey item, or parading the prey item around. Itīs a method for everyone..."G" rated. Tables are not for everyone, just as race horses, automatic guns, parachuting, are not for everyone. But the people that can have fun and do well with them, can EASILY do the "G" rated stuff.
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Jerry Lyda
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andres Martin
When are you coming to Ga? Very Happy

Woody, I started the post and haven't posted to much on it but have found out everything that I have asked by I think everyone. It has been great. I think we have a lot of mature people on this board and they have been great. I'm glad that I can be a part of this board with such good people. I would be proud to invite you and your dog(s) as well as anyone else that would like to come and play with us.
Now just because I'm satisfied with what I was looking for in starting this please don't stop posting. It's been a great discussion and I'm looking forward to hear more. ( Everyone, be nice and I know you all will.)
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Lyda wrote:
Andres Martin
When are you coming to Ga? Very Happy

Woody, I started the post and haven't posted to much on it but have found out everything that I have asked by I think everyone. It has been great. I think we have a lot of mature people on this board and they have been great. I'm glad that I can be a part of this board with such good people. I would be proud to invite you and your dog(s) as well as anyone else that would like to come and play with us.
Now just because I'm satisfied with what I was looking for in starting this please don't stop posting. It's been a great discussion and I'm looking forward to hear more. ( Everyone, be nice and I know you all will.)


Jerry, I have to agree with you about the thread. I finally figured out the huge and passionate divide between the schools of thought about the subject.

Excellent thread -- AND it did not have to be locked! Dancing Dancing Dancing
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Thomas Barriano
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Video Reply with quote

several people asked for videos of table training. I posted a pointer to a site with twelve examples and an opinion of why there weren't more.
It seems to have gottten deleted? Am I missing something here?
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Video Reply with quote

Thomas Barriano wrote:
several people asked for videos of table training. I posted a pointer to a site with twelve examples and an opinion of why there weren't more.
It seems to have gottten deleted? Am I missing something here?


If you are referring to the prokeys website, that user was banned. Please refer to the explanation the owner of this website gave in the thread Steve initiated a few days ago:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=672&start=20

PM me or post a question in "Ask A Moderator" if you have any concerns. Thanks!
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like very much to see more videos too: recent ones, especially, made by some other trainers. They're *very* hard to find.

Thomas, you've been to Mr. England's seminars. Do you know how I can purchase videos? I Googled, but failed.
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Thomas Barriano
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Video Reply with quote

Woody Taylor wrote:
Thomas Barriano wrote:
several people asked for videos of table training. I posted a pointer to a site with twelve examples and an opinion of why there weren't more.
It seems to have gottten deleted? Am I missing something here?


If you are referring to the prokeys website, that user was banned. Please refer to the explanation the owner of this website gave in the thread Steve initiated a few days ago:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=672&start=20

PM me or post a question in "Ask A Moderator" if you have any concerns. Thanks!


Hi 'Woody,

Thanks for the pointer. It is too bad Steve Leigh was banned. He has the
only table training videos, I am aware of posted on the web. Like him or
not (I happen to like him) Steve is one of the most knowledgable table
traners around, next to Gene England.
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Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa \"DoDah\" Germania (BD 11/05/99) SchH III IPO III Mondio Ring
Brevet AKC WDM III CD CGC WAC ATT TT
Ascomannis Jago (BD 06/20/03) Dodah Son SchH I ATT WAC YTT CGC
Belatucadrus (BD 08/14/05) Dutch Boy
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<< next to Gene England. >>>>>

If anyone knows how to get a video of Mr. England's training, the info would be welcome!
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Thomas Barriano
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
I'd like very much to see more videos too: recent ones, especially, made by some other trainers. They're *very* hard to find.

Thomas, you've been to Mr. England's seminars. Do you know how I can purchase videos? I Googled, but failed.


HI Connie

I am not aware of any table trianing videos available anywhere Sad
It is really too bad, that a very effective training tool, has gotten such a
bad reputation. I believe because of miss informantion and unwarrranted
hype and hysteria.
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Thomas Barriano
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas Barriano wrote:
Connie Sutherland wrote:
I'd like very much to see more videos too: recent ones, especially, made by some other trainers. They're *very* hard to find.

Thomas, you've been to Mr. England's seminars. Do you know how I can purchase videos? I Googled, but failed.


HI Connie

I am not aware of any table trianing videos available anywhere Sad
It is really too bad, that a very effective training tool, has gotten such a
bad reputation. I believe because of miss informantion and unwarrranted
hype and hysteria.


OK, thanks.

Maybe some good videos (recent ones) would be a reputation aid.
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Tim Martens
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

everyone seems to say that table training takes an experienced decoy who really knows how to read a dog. maybe that is why you don't see many videos. maybe they don't want some n00b trying to do it without the proper skills which just about everyone agrees can majorly set a dog back...
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martens wrote:
everyone seems to say that table training takes an experienced decoy who really knows how to read a dog. maybe that is why you don't see many videos. maybe they don't want some n00b trying to do it without the proper skills which just about everyone agrees can majorly set a dog back...


Actually, Tim, I DID hear exactly that about Gene England. I don't know whether it's true, but I did hear or read that -- that he thinks it's a bad idea for average trainers to attempt and that that's why he produces no videos.

I've never heard of such care taken in the production of videos of any other training method or tool..... so if that's the case, I must say that I'm impressed.
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Lou Castle
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Connie Sutherland wrote:
Actually, Tim, I DID hear exactly that about Gene England. I don't know whether it's true, but I did hear or read that -- that he thinks it's a bad idea for average trainers to attempt and that that's why he produces no videos.


The problem with this attitude is that someone sooner or later will produce a video on table training. They probably won't be as skilled as Mr. England so what will be shown will be lower quality work than can be done. I think it would be best to show the best possible work, rather than show nothing.

This is the danger of a free society. People will misuse or abuse tools often without meaning to; especially if there's a vacuum of information about them.

Any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. No tool is idiot-proof to the right idiot.
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Connie Sutherland
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou Castle wrote:
.... someone sooner or later will produce a video on table training. They probably won't be as skilled as Mr. England so what will be shown will be lower quality work than can be done. I think it would be best to show the best possible work, rather than show nothing......


Good point.
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Woody Taylor
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Martens wrote:
everyone seems to say that table training takes an experienced decoy who really knows how to read a dog. maybe that is why you don't see many videos. maybe they don't want some n00b trying to do it without the proper skills which just about everyone agrees can majorly set a dog back...


I guess I just find this hard to believe (this is not a knock on you, Tim). Think of all the crap you can buy now...books on Amazon called "Manstopper," etc and videos/DVDs that explicitly show PPD training. Unless table training is exponentially more dangerous to a user and a dog than anything I could buy on Amazon or Leerburg, etc. I don't buy that rationale. Bottom line is everything is filmed these days. Production costs are too cheap for there not to be some underground tapes, if nothing else. We've all seen the dog fighting stuff (I'm not equating table training with dog fighting)...it just exists.

I would understand if there are trainers out there (like Gene England, who I know next to nothing about) who wouldn't do a video for fear of abuse. If I were a dog equipment distributor, I'd have my own reservations about selling this kind of stuff to anyone off the street. I just don't believe that all trainers or all distributors or all table enthusiasts would have reservations about putting together media about table training beyond snap shots of prey-play activity that we have seen to date.
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Kristen Cabe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is too bad Steve Leigh was banned. He has the
only table training videos, I am aware of posted on the web.


This may be true, but his vids are more than a decade old, as are the rest of his dog training days. This is not a 'stab' at him or his reputation, just sharing of information as told to me personally by Mr. Leigh.
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