Molly Graf's
Face Begins To Run
On A PUBLIC
LIST:
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:24:28 EDT
Reply-To: Protection Dogs Discussion List <PROTECTION-DOGS-L@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Protection Dogs Discussion List <PROTECTION-DOGS-L@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Molly Graf <Molly Graf Is A LIAR>
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: PROTECTION-DOGS-L@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM
In a message dated 8/10/01 11:10:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@TAMPABAY.RR.COM writes:
<< Thanks to Gene England, I've used tables successfully
for over 10 years. The table is SO positive for the dogs to work on, that
they literally drag their handlers into the training room, onto the table. If
you feel you need video proof of these statements, you may contact me privately.
>>
That's interesting, I have a series of 5 or 6 tapes of a
seminar several years ago - a seminar on table training given by Gene England at
his facility. Showing what I would definately consider harsh training -
electric
collars on the testicles, flanks, belly - very harsh flanking by hand -
choking
to the point of passing out - pulling legs, ears - whenever the dogs turned or
looked away from the helper on the square table. On the retrieve table - dogs
getting pushed off when they didn't retrieve, lay down or respond to a command
quickly enough - left to
dangle there completely off the ground -
strangling to
the point of losing consciousness, unless they were lucky enough to figure out
how to climb back on the table on their own. I didn't finish watching these
tapes, I decided these methods were definately not for me or my dogs, so I don't
know how they continued this training - maybe they got nicer later on. Perhaps
Gene's methods of table training have changed since then - hope so.
I still have
those videos - If you feel you need video proof of these statements, you may
contact me privately.
Molly
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Steve Then
Replies Privately
To Molly's Public Message:
At 11:24 AM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
Hello Molly,
That's interesting, I have a series of 5 or 6 tapes of a
seminar several years ago - a seminar on table training given by Gene England at
his facility. Showing what I would definately consider harsh training - electric
collars on the testicles, flanks, belly - very harsh flanking by hand -
choking
to the point of passing out
I would like the tape of a dog passing out, please.
- pulling legs, ears - whenever the dogs turned or looked
away from the helper on the square table.
On the retrieve table - dogs getting pushed off when they didn't retrieve, lay
down or respond to a command quickly enough -
left to dangle there completely
off the ground - strangling to the point of losing consciousness,
Kindly send me the proof of dogs strangling to the point
of losing consciousness. And also any proof of a dog "dangling" ... by this you
apparently mean the dog's rear feet are NOT touching the ground, the dog is NOT
standing, therefore he is hanging by his neck? Or does "dangling" have some
other definition?
unless they were lucky enough to figure out how to climb
back on the table on their own.
Lucky? I've had thousands of dogs go off the long table -
they learn quickly to just jump right back up.
I didn't finish watching these tapes, I decided these
methods were definately not for me or my dogs, so I don't know how they
continued this training - maybe they got nicer later on.
Many people will take the time to learn and be completely
objective, others won't. While I can't and won't try and judge you - it's
apparent that you haven't clearly seen what tables have to offer.
Perhaps Gene's methods of table training have changed
since then - hope so.
Gene is by far one of the most compassionate trainers I
have ever worked with. I would trust him with my own dogs, and have done so
dozens of times, at dozens of classes and seminars since 1983.
I still have those videos -
If you feel you need video
proof of these statements, you may contact me privately.
Thank you Molly - I'm contacting you privately :))
Could you send them to me? I'll be glad to reimburse you
for postage, etc.
Steve Leigh
Canine Training
(address private)
Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com
Now Molly
Tells Us What She SAW,
EXCEPT SHE WASN'T THERE:
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:27:28 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/10/01 11:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<<
And also any proof of a dog "dangling" ... by this you
apparently mean the dog's rear feet are NOT touching the ground, the dog is NOT standing, therefore he is hanging by his neck? Or does "dangling" have some
other definition? >>
nope, that's about it.
Dog's hind feet not touching the
ground. Attached by collar to the line running above the retrieve table.
Strangling without help until the dog
appears to pass out or give up - some of
the dogs did make it on their own back up on the table, but noone helped them
either way. Lots of people standing around, I couldn't understand it. Most of
the dogs were Dobermans. And yes, one on the table on the video did
deficate
when shocked on the testicles with the shock collar. Sorry, I'm not trying to
start any rumors here -
I have these things on video. My trainer went to that seminar, we
were thinking of using table training and Gene was the one who started it - or
had the best method - or whatever - my trainer came back with the video, and yes
we used the tables - but there was some modification in the methods we used for
sure. Molly
Molly Now
Explains All About Hanging Dogs:
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:28:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/10/01 11:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< Lucky? I've had thousands of dogs go off the long table
- they learn
quickly to just jump right back up. >>
hard to jump right back up when their back legs are not touching the ground. Yes
some dogs did figure out how to brace themselves on their collars (they were
hanging) and climb back up - but no they had no opportunity to jump back up.
Now Molly's Trapped - Needs A Way Out.
"Maybe Things Have Changed":
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:33:07 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/10/01 11:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< Many people will take the time to learn and be
completely objective, others won't. While I can't and won't try and judge you -
it's apparent that you haven't clearly seen what tables have to offer.
I saw enough from those tapes to be not interested in
those particular methods. However my trainer did come back with ideas, we did
build the square and round tables (never bothered with the retrieve table)
though one Doberman person in our club did - who now trains with Gene England
and thinks very highly of him - we used the tables, and they were benefitial for
many dogs - confidence buiding, learning control on/off switch on command - I
liked many things about it. Never had to hurt the dogs however to get the results we wanted. At least not when I was there.
>Perhaps Gene's methods of table training have changed since then - hope so.
Gene is by far one of the most compassionate trainers I
have ever worked with. I would trust him with my own dogs, and have done so
dozens of times, at dozens of classes and seminars since 1983. >>
You know,
I have heard that. I don't have any opinion of
Gene, except from what I saw on those tapes.
I have heard many MANY good things
about him - I have a friend who thinks
he is the best trainer in the country,
and I think highly of her judgement. So I would not hesitate to train with Gene,
from his reputation I'm confident he is super. However I disagree with those
methods I personally saw, and would not personally do that with my dogs. To each
his own. Molly
Again, Steve Politely Asks For Tapes
That Molly PUBLICLY OFFERED:
At 05:33 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
You know, I have heard that. I don't have any opinion of
Gene, except from what I saw on those tapes. I have heard many MANY good things
about him - I have a friend who thinks he is the best trainer in the country,
and I think highly of her judgement. So
I would not hesitate to train with Gene,
from his reputation I'm confident he is super. However I disagree with those
methods I personally saw
Hi Molly,
Thank you for your messages.
As you offered, and as I requested, I would like to see these specific tapes
with the occurrences you described. Could you send them right away?
Thank you,
Steve
Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com
Now Molly's "Happy
To Send You The Tape(s)",
BUT "It Might Be Difficult To Find Those Tapes":
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:15:46 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/10/01 5:44:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< As you offered, and as I requested, I would like to see
these specific tapes with the occurrences you described. Could you send them
right away? >>
Hi Steve -
I am happy to send you the tape(s) mentioned. I
have 5 or 6 tapes, I have to look at them again and see which tape I was talking
about (probably the first one) -
but I am concerned now that I spoke too quickly
- I stand by what I saw on the tapes, I am not changing anything about what I
said. However I don't want to cause any trouble to Gene, by sending people the
tapes who would use them against him, or possibly for legal action - animal
abuse. There are several people including a police officer and someone else
looking to "stop" this kind of training - who want the tapes as well. I know dog
training is Gene's business and
I want no part of damaging that. Apparently he
has changed his methods, which is a good thing for sure, and maybe training he
did 7 or 8 years ago should be old news. I have to think about it some more.
I
am worried about sending the tapes and starting something I don't want to be a
part of. It might be difficult to find those tapes. Molly
Now Steve Puts
It Straight On The Table:
At 06:15 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
<< As you offered, and as I requested, I would like to see these specific
tapes with the occurrences you described. Could you send them right away? >>
Hi Steve - I am happy to send you the tape(s) mentioned. I
have 5 or 6
tapes, I have to look at them again and see which tape I was talking about
(probably the first one) - but I am concerned now that I spoke too quickly -
I stand by what I saw on the tapes, I am not changing anything about what I
said. However I don't want to cause any trouble to Gene, by sending people
the tapes who would use them against him, or possibly for legal action -
animal abuse.
Hi Molly,
Gene and I are
best friends - and have been since 1983. I wouldn't even consider
causing trouble for Gene. However, kindly read my "POINT!" paragraph, below.
There are several people including a police officer and
someone else looking to "stop" this kind of training - who want the tapes as
well. I know dog training is Gene's business and I want no part of damaging
that. Apparently he has changed his methods, which is a good thing for sure,
and maybe training he did 7 or 8 years ago should be old news. I have to
think about it some more. I am worried about sending the tapes and starting
something I don't want to be a part of. It might be difficult to find those
tapes. Molly
I can well appreciate your feelings. However .....
You said dogs passed out, were hung off the floor by their necks until
unconscious. I do NOT mean to call you a LIAR, and I'm not looking for a fight
with you - but I don't believe you actually saw this happen. I do not believe
it's on a video, AND I don't believe Gene, Mike, or anybody else training (in
those days) in Bowling Green actually did what you think you saw. I appreciate
that you may have THOUGHT you saw these things, but I need to see them with my
own eyes to believe they exist.
I'm not looking for a fight with you - I have at least 50 hours of Gene on tape
- and he IS forceful - there is no question. We ALL have **TOUCHED** a dog's
flank / rump / side with an electric to BRING THE DOG'S FOCUS into the fight
rather than avoidance. That's a method used by a lot of us INSTEAD of flanking!
Think about it - a fraction of a second of high electric stim .... it might
happen 2 or 3 times for a brain dead kinda dog ..... The TOUCH lasts less than
ONE SECOND, and the collar is NOT attached to the dog's testicles. It's in the
helper's HAND, with the transmitter in his OTHER hand. We are helpers - we know
exactly what is happening, why, and how much. These are statements that you have
made, and I would like to see the proof that you offered to me.
Now for a "POINT!" .....
You claim you don't want to "cause Gene any trouble" -
yet you wrote a message on a public forum, claiming that YOU SAW VARIOUS ACTS
(on a videotape) in Gene's facility! I don't know for sure whether or not you
checked that video JUST BEFORE YOU WROTE THE PUBLIC MESSAGE, but I suspect maybe
you didn't? In any case, what if you're WRONG?
Quote:
I have to think about it some more. I am worried about
sending the tapes and starting something I don't want to be a part of. It might
be difficult to find those tapes. Molly
Yes.
I knew before I asked for the tapes that you couldn't produce them. Knowing
what I know about Gene, his training, his school, the other trainers that work(ed) with him - it might be impossible to "find" those tapes.
Possibly you could resolve this yourself,
since you're so obviously copping
right out of what YOU offered to me as proof.
Maybe you'll accept the responsibility for having already MADE these statements,
sit down and WATCH these alleged videos NOW - (meaning the present, August,
2001, not trying to remember what you thought you saw years ago) - and reply
HONESTLY. AND .... maybe - after you make a THOROUGH examination of the videos,
maybe you'll publicly RETRACT some or all of the public statements which you
made.
I have been around and been using tables since Gene INVENTED them. I've heard
stories from one end of the US to the other. I've put on table training seminars
in 15 different states, built about 50 tables, I'm currently on my 4th round
table, and I've heard the (excuse me) bullshit from high to low. The situation
is: I know better.
Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com
Now Molly Graf Suddenly Has
NOTHING TO PROVE (And No Tapes To Not Prove It):
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:32:27 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/10/01 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< Yes. I knew before I asked for the tapes that you couldn't produce
them. Knowing what I know about Gene, his training, his school, the other
trainers that work(ed) with him - it might be impossible to "find" those
tapes.
Possibly you could resolve this yourself, since you're so obviously copping
right out of what YOU offered to me as proof. >>
sorry, I do have the tapes,
I do remember exactly what is
on them, and I do
have any proof that anyone would want that Gene England was the one doing
these things to those dogs. I didn't agree with the methods then, and I
don't now. I have nothing to prove to you, I don't care if you think I am
lying to you. I have no reason to lie. If I mention someone's name in
public with information like that, believe me I won't be making anything up.
And I don't care, if I decide not to send the tapes to you or anyone else
(there are quite a few people wanting to see them, most of those I'm afraid
looking for a fight) - I don't care, if you believe or don't believe these tapes exist.
The only thing I care about, is that if Gene has changed his
methods (there is no question about his previous methods) then there is no
reason in my opinion to send these tapes to people who might use them in the
wrong way, to hurt him. The tapes are right here. But
I don't have to find
them to send them to anyone, if I choose not to. And if you don't believe
your wonderful thoughtful precious gentle Gene could possibly do the things I
described, then keep having fun in dreamland Steve.
I have nothing to prove
to you. I know what I saw, and others saw it too - there were a lot of
people at the seminar I have on tape, they are on the video too. Molly
Being A Professional Helper,
Molly Now Defines Correct And Proper Flanking,
Defines Pain, And Criticizes Methods Which She Doesn't
Approve Of - Because Molly KNOWS Dog Training:
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:38:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YEs
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/10/01 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< That's a method used by a lot of us INSTEAD
of flanking! Think about it - a fraction of a second of high electric stim
.... it might happen 2 or 3 times for a brain dead kinda dog ..... The
TOUCH lasts less than ONE SECOND, and the collar is NOT attached to the
dog's testicles. It's in the helper's HAND, with the transmitter in his
OTHER hand. >>
ah - well then Gene and yourself are still using these
methods eh? That's
too bad, I hate to hear that. I'm sure a lot of people would hate to hear
that. No wonder you are so vague on the list - surprised about what you
heard about the seminar I mentioned - yeah right. I never said the electric
was attached to the testicles, of course it was held in hand and put there by
the so-called "helper" - and held there until the dog crapped and screamed
and peed. I'm sure it COULD be used in a different way, but it wasn't.
Sounds like you and your training methods are in the "old" ways of table
training. That's too bad, for your dog. There are other ways besides pain.
Like starting with a dog that is bred for the work, strong from the start and
not needing that kind of "defense" training. It is much easier when they
actually want to do the work, and don't need to be forced to do it. Molly
Molly Graf OFFERED Proof,
But Molly Refuses To PRODUCE Proof.
Steve Is Getting Just Slightly Pissed:
At 02:32 AM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated 8/10/01 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< Yes. I knew before I asked for the tapes that you couldn't produce them.
sorry, I do have the tapes, I do remember exactly what is
on them, and I do
have any proof that anyone would want that Gene England was the one doing
these things to those dogs.
Well, I say "no you don't have ANY proof". And since you OFFERED these tapes as
proof - the very least you could do is PROVIDE this proof.
I didn't agree with the methods then, and I don't now. I
have nothing to prove to you, I don't care if you think I am lying to you. I
have no reason to lie.
You're the one who OFFERED to prove, and of course, you can't do it.
If I mention someone's name in public with information
like that, believe me I won't be making anything up.
"Believe you"?? Oh, I'm terribly sorry - yes - you ARE making it up. No - I do
NOT believe you. You've already LIED 3 different times since your 1st message.
I'd be quite stupid to "believe you".
And I don't care, if I decide not to send the tapes to you
or anyone else (there are quite a few people wanting to see them, most of those
I'm afraid looking for a fight) - I don't care, if you believe or don't believe
these tapes exist.
I never doubted the *existence* of Gene's training tapes - I only doubt the
*contents* which you've described.
The only thing I care about, is that if Gene has changed
his methods (there is no question about his previous methods)
Yes, there IS a question. What a truly wonderful person you are now ...... you
suddenly "CARE" about Gene - whom you have never met!! And your "care" extends
beyond the blatant SLANDER you provided on a public forum!!
then there is no reason in my opinion to send these tapes
to people
Then why did you OFFER to send them? It's now fully apparent that you are simply
LYING.
who might use them in the wrong way, to hurt him.
This is nothing short of a crock of shit! You didn't worry one bit about
"hurting" anybody when you "vividly" described Gene's methods publicly. And
you're obviously too full of shit to just pick up your phone (or you can't
figure out how to call?) and CALL Gene - ask HIM if sending me a tape of his
training would "hurt him". You're getting beyond pitiful, here, Molly. Your
"word" isn't worth much, is it.
The tapes are right here.
Yeah, I'm sure some TAPES are. But I'm equally sure they don't contain what you
said they do.
But I don't have to find them to send them to anyone, if I
choose not to.
No, of course not.
You don't even have to breathe (or lie) if you choose not to.
It's all up to you, Molly.
And if you don't believe your wonderful thoughtful
precious gentle Gene could possibly do the things I
described, then keep having fun in dreamland Steve.
Dreamland?? I fucking LIVED in his HOUSE, you lying piece of shit - I trained
with him for MONTHS - dozens of dogs - around the clock. I never offered
*ANYBODY* a video to PROVE the horseshit you're spreading around the world, but
YOU DID. And as soon as I asked you to SEND it - your horseshit tripled. I hope
you sell Shepherds, Molly. I'll be dead before any of MY clients do business
with you. Your grandchildren will be in wheelchairs before *I* buy from you.
But we'll ALL be sending thousands up to Gene for our new dogs.
I have nothing to prove to you. I know what I saw,
No - I'm now convinced beyond a doubt. You are totally full of shit, and I hope
you do JUST enough lying to get sued for slander. If Gene gets a suit going on
you, I'll gladly drive up there for free - just to have a piece of legally
slapping your kind of lying trash upside the head.
And as your hormones take control ........... Remember this: YOU said you had
tapes. YOU wrote me (privately) and said you could provide proof of your
hallucinating, drug-induced claims. You could have kept your mouth (keyboard)
shut.
People like you are what make dog training SUCK. Eichenluft? Not on OUR training
field! Stick your oaks, air, lies, and your non-existent tapes right up your
ass, Molly.
Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com
MOLLY GRAF IS A LIAR:
At 02:38 AM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
ah - well then Gene and yourself are still using these
methods eh? That's
too bad, I hate to hear that.
Only because you know NOTHING about protection work.
held in hand and put there by the so-called "helper" - and
held there until the dog crapped and screamed
and peed.
You are a liar. No dog on the planet will stand STILL with a shock collar
touching his balls - long enough to shit, piss, and scream. YOU ARE A LIAR.
Sounds like you and your training methods are in the "old"
ways of table
training. That's too bad, for your dog.
ANYTIME you would like to compare MY training with YOUR training, get your dog,
and let's go.
Like starting with a dog that is bred for the work, strong
from the start and not needing that kind of "defense" training. It is much
easier when they actually want to do the work, and don't need to be forced to do
it.
You're (again) way over your head.
Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com
Like ALL Liars, Molly Evades Everything,
And WON'T Send The Proof That SHE Offered:
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:37:48 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YEs
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/11/01 4:07:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< >Like starting with a dog that is bred for the work,
strong from the start and not needing that kind of "defense" training. It is much easier when they actually want to do the work, and don't need to be forced to do it.
You're (again) way over your head.>>
I really don't have to respond to your name-calling and
etc. I can defend my
dogs - they are bred for the work, and meet the challenge without having to
be forced or have that kind of pain - even "instant" shocks put to them -
they are there, they are ready, to do the job without any of that kind of
stuff. It's called genetics. My dogs have proven themselves, I have proven
myself in training them, I continue to do that, my puppies continue to be out
there proving themselves and will continue to do so.
I responded to your initial statement by disagreeing - I have seen the
table methods that people are so afraid of, and I have seen Gene training
with these abusive methods.
I do have "proof" but I have changed my mind in
offering to send these tapes out - not because I don't have them, but because
I have decided there is no point in bringing out proof of abuse, both because
I don't feel it is necessary for Gene if he has, I've been told, changed his
methods of table training. And for myself, I don't want to be in the middle
of all of this -
I have changed my mind - and again I don't care if you
believe me or not. I'm sure Gene is producing and selling excellent dogs, as I said before - there was never any question of that. I am producing and
selling excellent dogs too. If they ever end up on your training field, it
would be a very good dog - but if not, then so it is. Happy training - Molly
Steve's Turn -
Take Off The Gloves.
No Proof, None Exists:
At 10:37 AM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
and I have seen Gene training with these abusive methods.
I do have "proof" but I have changed my mind in offering to send these tapes out
First, you publicly lie about the contents of some tapes you claim you have.
Second, you offer these tapes to me.
Third, you refuse to keep your word.
not because I don't have them, but because I have decided
there is no point in bringing out proof of abuse,
You simply don't *have* proof of any abuse. You have an imagination, a computer,
and an axe to grind.
And for myself, I don't want to be in the middle of all of
this - I have changed my mind - and again I don't care if you believe me or not.
You certainly DO want to "be in the middle" - that's why you wrote your (false)
messages and made your (false) offers of proof. If you genuinely DIDN'T want to
be "in the middle", you never would have offered proof to anyone. In fact, if
you REALLY didn't want to be in the middle, you would have said absolutely
NOTHING about these alleged tapes that you haven't seen in YEARS, and never
watched entirely (according to you).
If they ever end up on your training field, it would be a
very good dog - but if not, then so it is.
It's quite obvious to me, Molly, that your WORD is not dependable. You have
illustrated in less than 24 hours that what you say (write) is NOT what you
mean. I wouldn't dream of doing business with a person who is not honest. My
clients wouldn't either. Your dogs won't end up on our field or our tables,
count on it.
Happy training - Molly
Yes - Truthful Training ....... we don't need to lie.
Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com
Molly
Graf Finally Quits.
Liars Don't Last Long When You Trap Them:
From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:04:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YEs
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
In a message dated 8/11/01 11:24:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:
<< Your dogs won't end up on our field
or our tables, count on it. >>
Absolutely excellent - I certainly wouldn't want to sell
one of my pups to
someone practising training methods such as yours.
The tapes don't matter.
The facts do matter. You made a statement about Gene training table work in
a kind and gentle manner. I disputed that, with the simple fact that I had
seen differently. That is a fact, and it is not a secret to anyone - ask
Gene himself, I'm sure he would tell you he practised those methods which
most dog trainers would consider abusive. I don't think it is a secret for
him - he has publicly told people he "used" to do these things. It seems
that he has changed his methods, that is good - so that is why I am not
sending tapes anywhere, especially to you who has made it clear that you
yourself practise these training methods. I will post to a list my opinion if I
have it, I do have proof which I have changed my mind about making public. If
you don't believe me, that's fine and I don't care. Follows is a statement from
Gene to someone attending one of his seminars. Sounds like he has changed his
methods from when he gave the seminar that I have on tape. That is good enough
for me, end of story. This is my last post to you, who will absolutely never see
one of my dogs on your training field - you probably wouldn't know what to do
with a dog who didn't need to be forced to stand up to a challenge. Molly
