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The WFFCW was created August 5, 2001 :: we're 15 YEARS OLD!

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WFFCW hits since April, 2003


"It's like a nightmare, isn't it?  It just keeps getting worse and worse." .... Keith McCready, in "The Color of Money"

"The only vaccine powerful enough to inoculate you from lies is the truth." .... Al Franken, famous author

WFFCW Quote Of The Second

WHAT IS THIS WEBSITE ABOUT?  Some of this is a personal website containing REBUTTAL, REPLY, and COMMENT to (primarily) public statements and accusations made by various self proclaimed "internet dog training experts".  The majority of the statements and accusations are FALSE, and refer to me, personally.  The nucleus of this website is based on verbatim quotes of public messages, most of which are archived with their respective lists.  Unless noted, nothing has been altered, other than formatting line length to screen width and changing the font style.  Other parts of this site contain OPINIONS, HUMOR, PARODY, COMEDY, and SARCASM which reflect my own personal sense of humor and viewpoints.  The First Amendment of the Constitution adequately, particularly, and specifically provides these rights.  This site is for educational and entertainment purposes.  This is emphatically not a "hate" site.  There is no hate, and never was.  Profanity is kept to a minimum, but it does exist.  If this website seems offensive to you, in any way, please leave now.  Please do not subject yourself to being offended.

TO THOSE IN FEAR OF THIS WEBSITE:  Websites can be terrifying places.  If you're afraid, we'll never understand why, but what can WE do?  You're allowed to be frightened of webpages, or anything else.  This website contains NO THREATS of any nature - no direct, indirect, implied, supplied, or personified threats - it never did and never will.  There is a lot of SARCASM here.  If you're afraid, our heart goes out to you - we don't WANT you to be afraid.  We want you to get help.  Dial 911, and scream for help.  If you wind up in a straight jacket, that's your problem.  If you don't, that's your problem, too.

COPYRIGHT © is clearly acknowledged where, when, and if applicable.  It's even acknowledged where it's not applicableThe USCO website.  This link contains verbatim United States Copyright Law, which clearly allows for rebuttal, comment, criticism, etc.  United States Copyright Law specifically states "COPYRIGHT DOES NOT APPLY TO FACTUAL INFORMATION".  (Read the law - see for yourself.)  Rebutting falsified "factual information" is not a violation of copyright law.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE I'M TRUTHFUL, DOWNLOAD ORIGINAL SCREEN CAPTURES 

IF I'M NOT 100% HONEST AND ACCURATE, CALL ME A LIAR and CONFRONT ME WITH FACTS

Main WFFCW Menu


Molly Graf Is A LIAR

Steve's message to Molly Graf - the LIAR

 

read the lies for yourself - these are VERBATIM reprints, and are included in the evidence zipfile

note: I personally REMOVED Molly's website link from her signature.  I also changed her email address. 

She's not getting any free advertising HERE!

 

Molly Graf's text is RED

Some of Molly Graf's text is RED highlighted and BOLD

Steve Leigh's text is BLUE

 

WATCH THE VIDEO NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE

 

download this zipfile

This zip has 3 .htm webpages and 3 folders of visual files.

Download (save) it into a junk folder and extract to view it correctly.

Please VIRUS SCAN any/all files from this website.


Check THIS LINK

The .jpg (below) and the above link were sent to me by "honest molly's" friends

Another LINK - sent by "honest molly's" friends - newspaper article

Molly Graf's Face Begins To Run

On A PUBLIC LIST:

X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:24:28 EDT
Reply-To: Protection Dogs Discussion List <PROTECTION-DOGS-L@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender: Protection Dogs Discussion List <PROTECTION-DOGS-L@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Molly Graf <Molly Graf Is A LIAR>
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: PROTECTION-DOGS-L@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM

In a message dated 8/10/01 11:10:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@TAMPABAY.RR.COM writes:

<< Thanks to Gene England, I've used tables successfully for over 10 years.  The table is SO positive for the dogs to work on, that they literally drag their handlers into the training room, onto the table. If you feel you need video proof of these statements, you may contact me privately. >>

That's interesting, I have a series of 5 or 6 tapes of a seminar several years ago - a seminar on table training given by Gene England at his facility. Showing what I would definately consider harsh training - electric collars on the testicles, flanks, belly - very harsh flanking by hand - choking to the point of passing out - pulling legs, ears - whenever the dogs turned or looked away from the helper on the square table. On the retrieve table - dogs getting pushed off when they didn't retrieve, lay down or respond to a command quickly enough - left to dangle there completely off the ground - strangling to the point of losing consciousness, unless they were lucky enough to figure out how to climb back on the table on their own. I didn't finish watching these tapes, I decided these methods were definately not for me or my dogs, so I don't know how they continued this training - maybe they got nicer later on. Perhaps Gene's methods of table training have changed since then - hope so. I still have those videos - If you feel you need video proof of these statements, you may contact me privately.
Molly

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Steve Then Replies Privately

To Molly's Public Message:

 

At 11:24 AM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:

Hello Molly,

That's interesting, I have a series of 5 or 6 tapes of a seminar several years ago - a seminar on table training given by Gene England at his facility. Showing what I would definately consider harsh training - electric collars on the testicles, flanks, belly - very harsh flanking by hand - choking to the point of passing out

I would like the tape of a dog passing out, please.

- pulling legs, ears - whenever the dogs turned or looked away from the helper on the square table.
On the retrieve table - dogs getting pushed off when they didn't retrieve, lay down or respond to a command quickly enough - left to dangle there completely off the ground - strangling to the point of losing consciousness,

Kindly send me the proof of dogs strangling to the point of losing consciousness. And also any proof of a dog "dangling" ... by this you apparently mean the dog's rear feet are NOT touching the ground, the dog is NOT standing, therefore he is hanging by his neck? Or does "dangling" have some other definition?

unless they were lucky enough to figure out how to climb back on the table on their own.

Lucky? I've had thousands of dogs go off the long table - they learn quickly to just jump right back up.

I didn't finish watching these tapes, I decided these methods were definately not for me or my dogs, so I don't know how they continued this training - maybe they got nicer later on.

Many people will take the time to learn and be completely objective, others won't. While I can't and won't try and judge you - it's apparent that you haven't clearly seen what tables have to offer.

Perhaps Gene's methods of table training have changed since then - hope so.

Gene is by far one of the most compassionate trainers I have ever worked with. I would trust him with my own dogs, and have done so dozens of times, at dozens of classes and seminars since 1983.

I still have those videos - If you feel you need video proof of these statements, you may contact me privately.

Thank you Molly - I'm contacting you privately :))

Could you send them to me? I'll be glad to reimburse you for postage, etc.
Steve Leigh
Canine Training
(address private)


Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com

Now Molly Tells Us What She SAW,

EXCEPT SHE WASN'T THERE:

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:27:28 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/10/01 11:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< And also any proof of a dog "dangling" ... by this you apparently mean the dog's rear feet are NOT touching the ground, the dog is NOT standing, therefore he is hanging by his neck? Or does "dangling" have some other definition? >>

nope, that's about it. Dog's hind feet not touching the ground. Attached by collar to the line running above the retrieve table. Strangling without help until the dog appears to pass out or give up - some of the dogs did make it on their own back up on the table, but noone helped them either way. Lots of people standing around, I couldn't understand it. Most of the dogs were Dobermans. And yes, one on the table on the video did deficate when shocked on the testicles with the shock collar. Sorry, I'm not trying to start any rumors here - I have these things on video. My trainer went to that seminar, we were thinking of using table training and Gene was the one who started it - or had the best method - or whatever - my trainer came back with the video, and yes we used the tables - but there was some modification in the methods we used for sure. Molly

Molly Now Explains All About Hanging Dogs:

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:28:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/10/01 11:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< Lucky? I've had thousands of dogs go off the long table - they learn quickly to just jump right back up. >>

hard to jump right back up when their back legs are not touching the ground. Yes some dogs did figure out how to brace themselves on their collars (they were hanging) and climb back up - but no they had no opportunity to jump back up.

Now Molly's Trapped - Needs A Way Out.

"Maybe Things Have Changed":

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:33:07 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/10/01 11:48:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< Many people will take the time to learn and be completely objective, others won't. While I can't and won't try and judge you - it's apparent that you haven't clearly seen what tables have to offer.

I saw enough from those tapes to be not interested in those particular methods. However my trainer did come back with ideas, we did build the square and round tables (never bothered with the retrieve table) though one Doberman person in our club did - who now trains with Gene England and thinks very highly of him - we used the tables, and they were benefitial for many dogs - confidence buiding, learning control on/off switch on command - I liked many things about it. Never had to hurt the dogs however to get the results we wanted. At least not when I was there. 

>Perhaps Gene's methods of table training have changed since then - hope so.

Gene is by far one of the most compassionate trainers I have ever worked with. I would trust him with my own dogs, and have done so dozens of times, at dozens of classes and seminars since 1983. >>

You know, I have heard that. I don't have any opinion of Gene, except from what I saw on those tapes. I have heard many MANY good things about him - I have a friend who thinks he is the best trainer in the country, and I think highly of her judgement. So I would not hesitate to train with Gene, from his reputation I'm confident he is super. However I disagree with those methods I personally saw, and would not personally do that with my dogs. To each his own. Molly

Again, Steve Politely Asks For Tapes

That Molly PUBLICLY OFFERED:

At 05:33 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:

You know, I have heard that. I don't have any opinion of Gene, except from what I saw on those tapes. I have heard many MANY good things about him - I have a friend who thinks he is the best trainer in the country, and I think highly of her judgement. So I would not hesitate to train with Gene, from his reputation I'm confident he is super. However I disagree with those methods I personally saw

Hi Molly,

Thank you for your messages.

As you offered, and as I requested, I would like to see these specific tapes with the occurrences you described. Could you send them right away?

Thank you,

Steve

Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com

Now Molly's "Happy To Send You The Tape(s)",

BUT "It Might Be Difficult To Find Those Tapes":

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:15:46 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/10/01 5:44:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< As you offered, and as I requested, I would like to see these specific tapes with the occurrences you described. Could you send them right away? >>

Hi Steve - I am happy to send you the tape(s) mentioned. I have 5 or 6 tapes, I have to look at them again and see which tape I was talking about (probably the first one) - but I am concerned now that I spoke too quickly - I stand by what I saw on the tapes, I am not changing anything about what I said. However I don't want to cause any trouble to Gene, by sending people the tapes who would use them against him, or possibly for legal action - animal abuse. There are several people including a police officer and someone else looking to "stop" this kind of training - who want the tapes as well. I know dog training is Gene's business and I want no part of damaging that. Apparently he has changed his methods, which is a good thing for sure, and maybe training he did 7 or 8 years ago should be old news. I have to think about it some more. I am worried about sending the tapes and starting something I don't want to be a part of. It might be difficult to find those tapes. Molly

Now Steve Puts It Straight On The Table:

At 06:15 PM 8/10/01 -0400, you wrote:

<< As you offered, and as I requested, I would like to see these specific tapes with the occurrences you described. Could you send them right away? >>

Hi Steve - I am happy to send you the tape(s) mentioned. I have 5 or 6 tapes, I have to look at them again and see which tape I was talking about (probably the first one) - but I am concerned now that I spoke too quickly - I stand by what I saw on the tapes, I am not changing anything about what I said. However I don't want to cause any trouble to Gene, by sending people the tapes who would use them against him, or possibly for legal action - animal abuse.

Hi Molly,

Gene and I are best friends - and have been since 1983. I wouldn't even consider causing trouble for Gene. However, kindly read my "POINT!" paragraph, below.

There are several people including a police officer and someone else looking to "stop" this kind of training - who want the tapes as well. I know dog training is Gene's business and I want no part of damaging that. Apparently he has changed his methods, which is a good thing for sure, and maybe training he did 7 or 8 years ago should be old news. I have to think about it some more. I am worried about sending the tapes and starting something I don't want to be a part of. It might be difficult to find those tapes. Molly

I can well appreciate your feelings. However .....

You said dogs passed out, were hung off the floor by their necks until unconscious. I do NOT mean to call you a LIAR, and I'm not looking for a fight with you - but I don't believe you actually saw this happen. I do not believe it's on a video, AND I don't believe Gene, Mike, or anybody else training (in those days) in Bowling Green actually did what you think you saw. I appreciate that you may have THOUGHT you saw these things, but I need to see them with my own eyes to believe they exist.

I'm not looking for a fight with you - I have at least 50 hours of Gene on tape - and he IS forceful - there is no question. We ALL have **TOUCHED** a dog's flank / rump / side with an electric to BRING THE DOG'S FOCUS into the fight rather than avoidance. That's a method used by a lot of us INSTEAD of flanking! Think about it - a fraction of a second of high electric stim .... it might happen 2 or 3 times for a brain dead kinda dog ..... The TOUCH lasts less than ONE SECOND, and the collar is NOT attached to the dog's testicles. It's in the helper's HAND, with the transmitter in his OTHER hand. We are helpers - we know exactly what is happening, why, and how much. These are statements that you have made, and I would like to see the proof that you offered to me.

Now for a "POINT!" ..... You claim you don't want to "cause Gene any trouble" - yet you wrote a message on a public forum, claiming that YOU SAW VARIOUS ACTS (on a videotape) in Gene's facility! I don't know for sure whether or not you checked that video JUST BEFORE YOU WROTE THE PUBLIC MESSAGE, but I suspect maybe you didn't? In any case, what if you're WRONG?
 

Quote:
I have to think about it some more. I am worried about sending the tapes and starting something I don't want to be a part of. It might be difficult to find those tapes. Molly

Yes. I knew before I asked for the tapes that you couldn't produce them. Knowing what I know about Gene, his training, his school, the other trainers that work(ed) with him - it might be impossible to "find" those tapes.

Possibly you could resolve this yourself, since you're so obviously copping right out of what YOU offered to me as proof.

Maybe you'll accept the responsibility for having already MADE these statements, sit down and WATCH these alleged videos NOW - (meaning the present, August, 2001, not trying to remember what you thought you saw years ago) - and reply HONESTLY. AND .... maybe - after you make a THOROUGH examination of the videos, maybe you'll publicly RETRACT some or all of the public statements which you made.

I have been around and been using tables since Gene INVENTED them. I've heard stories from one end of the US to the other. I've put on table training seminars in 15 different states, built about 50 tables, I'm currently on my 4th round table, and I've heard the (excuse me) bullshit from high to low. The situation is: I know better.
 

Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com

Now Molly Graf Suddenly Has

NOTHING TO PROVE (And No Tapes To Not Prove It):

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:32:27 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YES
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/10/01 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< Yes. I knew before I asked for the tapes that you couldn't produce them. Knowing what I know about Gene, his training, his school, the other trainers that work(ed) with him - it might be impossible to "find" those tapes.

Possibly you could resolve this yourself, since you're so obviously copping right out of what YOU offered to me as proof. >>

sorry, I do have the tapes, I do remember exactly what is on them, and I do have any proof that anyone would want that Gene England was the one doing these things to those dogs. I didn't agree with the methods then, and I don't now. I have nothing to prove to you, I don't care if you think I am lying to you. I have no reason to lie. If I mention someone's name in public with information like that, believe me I won't be making anything up. And I don't care, if I decide not to send the tapes to you or anyone else (there are quite a few people wanting to see them, most of those I'm afraid looking for a fight) - I don't care, if you believe or don't believe these tapes exist. The only thing I care about, is that if Gene has changed his methods (there is no question about his previous methods) then there is no reason in my opinion to send these tapes to people who might use them in the wrong way, to hurt him. The tapes are right here. But I don't have to find them to send them to anyone, if I choose not to. And if you don't believe your wonderful thoughtful precious gentle Gene could possibly do the things I described, then keep having fun in dreamland Steve. I have nothing to prove to you. I know what I saw, and others saw it too - there were a lot of people at the seminar I have on tape, they are on the video too. Molly

Being A Professional Helper,

Molly Now Defines Correct And Proper Flanking,

Defines Pain, And Criticizes Methods Which She Doesn't Approve Of - Because Molly KNOWS Dog Training:

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:38:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YEs
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/10/01 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< That's a method used by a lot of us INSTEAD of flanking! Think about it - a fraction of a second of high electric stim .... it might happen 2 or 3 times for a brain dead kinda dog ..... The TOUCH lasts less than ONE SECOND, and the collar is NOT attached to the
dog's testicles. It's in the helper's HAND, with the transmitter in his OTHER hand. >>

ah - well then Gene and yourself are still using these methods eh? That's too bad, I hate to hear that. I'm sure a lot of people would hate to hear that. No wonder you are so vague on the list - surprised about what you heard about the seminar I mentioned - yeah right. I never said the electric was attached to the testicles, of course it was held in hand and put there by the so-called "helper" - and held there until the dog crapped and screamed and peed. I'm sure it COULD be used in a different way, but it wasn't. Sounds like you and your training methods are in the "old" ways of table training. That's too bad, for your dog. There are other ways besides pain. Like starting with a dog that is bred for the work, strong from the start and not needing that kind of "defense" training. It is much easier when they actually want to do the work, and don't need to be forced to do it. Molly

Molly Graf OFFERED Proof,

But Molly Refuses To PRODUCE Proof.

Steve Is Getting Just Slightly Pissed:

At 02:32 AM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote:

In a message dated 8/10/01 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< Yes. I knew before I asked for the tapes that you couldn't produce them.

sorry, I do have the tapes, I do remember exactly what is on them, and I do have any proof that anyone would want that Gene England was the one doing these things to those dogs.

Well, I say "no you don't have ANY proof". And since you OFFERED these tapes as proof - the very least you could do is PROVIDE this proof.

I didn't agree with the methods then, and I don't now. I have nothing to prove to you, I don't care if you think I am lying to you. I have no reason to lie.

You're the one who OFFERED to prove, and of course, you can't do it.

If I mention someone's name in public with information like that, believe me I won't be making anything up.

"Believe you"?? Oh, I'm terribly sorry - yes - you ARE making it up. No - I do NOT believe you. You've already LIED 3 different times since your 1st message. I'd be quite stupid to "believe you".

And I don't care, if I decide not to send the tapes to you or anyone else (there are quite a few people wanting to see them, most of those I'm afraid looking for a fight) - I don't care, if you believe or don't believe these tapes exist.

I never doubted the *existence* of Gene's training tapes - I only doubt the *contents* which you've described.

The only thing I care about, is that if Gene has changed his methods (there is no question about his previous methods)

Yes, there IS a question. What a truly wonderful person you are now ...... you suddenly "CARE" about Gene - whom you have never met!! And your "care" extends beyond the blatant SLANDER you provided on a public forum!!

then there is no reason in my opinion to send these tapes to people

Then why did you OFFER to send them? It's now fully apparent that you are simply LYING.

who might use them in the wrong way, to hurt him.

This is nothing short of a crock of shit! You didn't worry one bit about "hurting" anybody when you "vividly" described Gene's methods publicly. And you're obviously too full of shit to just pick up your phone (or you can't figure out how to call?) and CALL Gene - ask HIM if sending me a tape of his training would "hurt him". You're getting beyond pitiful, here, Molly. Your "word" isn't worth much, is it.

The tapes are right here.

Yeah, I'm sure some TAPES are. But I'm equally sure they don't contain what you said they do.

But I don't have to find them to send them to anyone, if I choose not to.

No, of course not. You don't even have to breathe (or lie) if you choose not to. It's all up to you, Molly.

And if you don't believe your wonderful thoughtful precious gentle Gene could possibly do the things I described, then keep having fun in dreamland Steve.

Dreamland?? I fucking LIVED in his HOUSE, you lying piece of shit - I trained with him for MONTHS - dozens of dogs - around the clock. I never offered *ANYBODY* a video to PROVE the horseshit you're spreading around the world, but YOU DID. And as soon as I asked you to SEND it - your horseshit tripled. I hope you sell Shepherds, Molly. I'll be dead before any of MY clients do business with you. Your grandchildren will be in wheelchairs before *I* buy from you. But we'll ALL be sending thousands up to Gene for our new dogs.

I have nothing to prove to you. I know what I saw,

No - I'm now convinced beyond a doubt. You are totally full of shit, and I hope you do JUST enough lying to get sued for slander. If Gene gets a suit going on you, I'll gladly drive up there for free - just to have a piece of legally slapping your kind of lying trash upside the head.

And as your hormones take control ........... Remember this: YOU said you had tapes. YOU wrote me (privately) and said you could provide proof of your hallucinating, drug-induced claims. You could have kept your mouth (keyboard) shut.

People like you are what make dog training SUCK. Eichenluft? Not on OUR training field! Stick your oaks, air, lies, and your non-existent tapes right up your ass, Molly.

Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com

MOLLY GRAF IS A LIAR:

At 02:38 AM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote:

ah - well then Gene and yourself are still using these methods eh? That's too bad, I hate to hear that.

Only because you know NOTHING about protection work.

held in hand and put there by the so-called "helper" - and held there until the dog crapped and screamed and peed.

You are a liar. No dog on the planet will stand STILL with a shock collar touching his balls - long enough to shit, piss, and scream. YOU ARE A LIAR.

Sounds like you and your training methods are in the "old" ways of table training. That's too bad, for your dog.

ANYTIME you would like to compare MY training with YOUR training, get your dog, and let's go.

Like starting with a dog that is bred for the work, strong from the start and not needing that kind of "defense" training. It is much easier when they actually want to do the work, and don't need to be forced to do it.

You're (again) way over your head.

Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com

Like ALL Liars, Molly Evades Everything,

And WON'T Send The Proof That SHE Offered:

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:37:48 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YEs
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/11/01 4:07:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< >Like starting with a dog that is bred for the work, strong from the start and not needing that kind of "defense" training. It is much easier when they actually want to do the work, and don't need to be forced to do it.

You're (again) way over your head.>>

I really don't have to respond to your name-calling and etc. I can defend my dogs - they are bred for the work, and meet the challenge without having to be forced or have that kind of pain - even "instant" shocks put to them - they are there, they are ready, to do the job without any of that kind of stuff. It's called genetics. My dogs have proven themselves, I have proven myself in training them, I continue to do that, my puppies continue to be out there proving themselves and will continue to do so. I responded to your initial statement by disagreeing - I have seen the table methods that people are so afraid of, and I have seen Gene training with these abusive methods. I do have "proof" but I have changed my mind in offering to send these tapes out - not because I don't have them, but because I have decided there is no point in bringing out proof of abuse, both because I don't feel it is necessary for Gene if he has, I've been told, changed his methods of table training. And for myself, I don't want to be in the middle of all of this - I have changed my mind - and again I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm sure Gene is producing and selling excellent dogs, as I said before - there was never any question of that. I am producing and selling excellent dogs too. If they ever end up on your training field, it would be a very good dog - but if not, then so it is. Happy training - Molly

Steve's Turn - Take Off The Gloves.

No Proof, None Exists:

At 10:37 AM 8/11/01 -0400, you wrote:

and I have seen Gene training with these abusive methods. I do have "proof" but I have changed my mind in offering to send these tapes out

First, you publicly lie about the contents of some tapes you claim you have. Second, you offer these tapes to me. Third, you refuse to keep your word.

not because I don't have them, but because I have decided there is no point in bringing out proof of abuse,

You simply don't *have* proof of any abuse. You have an imagination, a computer, and an axe to grind.

And for myself, I don't want to be in the middle of all of this - I have changed my mind - and again I don't care if you believe me or not.

You certainly DO want to "be in the middle" - that's why you wrote your (false) messages and made your (false) offers of proof. If you genuinely DIDN'T want to be "in the middle", you never would have offered proof to anyone. In fact, if you REALLY didn't want to be in the middle, you would have said absolutely NOTHING about these alleged tapes that you haven't seen in YEARS, and never watched entirely (according to you).

If they ever end up on your training field, it would be a very good dog - but if not, then so it is.

It's quite obvious to me, Molly, that your WORD is not dependable. You have illustrated in less than 24 hours that what you say (write) is NOT what you mean. I wouldn't dream of doing business with a person who is not honest. My clients wouldn't either. Your dogs won't end up on our field or our tables, count on it.

Happy training - Molly

Yes - Truthful Training ....... we don't need to lie.

Steve Leigh - sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
www.sl-prokeys.com

Molly Graf Finally Quits.

Liars Don't Last Long When You Trap Them:

From: Molly Graf Is A LIAR
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:04:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [PD-L] Tabletop Training: DEFINITELY YEs
To: sleigh@tampabay.rr.com
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138

In a message dated 8/11/01 11:24:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sleigh@tampabay.rr.com writes:

<< Your dogs won't end up on our field or our tables, count on it. >>

Absolutely excellent - I certainly wouldn't want to sell one of my pups to someone practising training methods such as yours. The tapes don't matter.  The facts do matter. You made a statement about Gene training table work in  a kind and gentle manner. I disputed that, with the simple fact that I had seen differently. That is a fact, and it is not a secret to anyone - ask Gene himself, I'm sure he would tell you he practised those methods which most dog trainers would consider abusive. I don't think it is a secret for him - he has publicly told people he "used" to do these things. It seems that he has changed his methods, that is good - so that is why I am not
sending tapes anywhere, especially to you who has made it clear that you yourself practise these training methods. I will post to a list my opinion if I have it, I do have proof which I have changed my mind about making public. If you don't believe me, that's fine and I don't care. Follows is a statement from Gene to someone attending one of his seminars. Sounds like he has changed his methods from when he gave the seminar that I have on tape. That is good enough for me, end of story. This is my last post to you, who will absolutely never see one of my dogs on your training field - you probably wouldn't know what to do with a dog who didn't need to be forced to stand up to a challenge. Molly

Video Proof that Molly Graf is a LIAR

 

The video is in .flv (Flash Video) format.  It is exactly 1 minute and 7 seconds long.

Please listen carefully to the dialogue between the K9 deputy and myself.  You may have to re-play it 2 or 3 times to accurately catch the words.

 

If you doubt that Molly is a LIAR, and I hope you do, you WILL see undeniable proof with your own eyes.

 

PLEASE - READ THE FOLLOWING TEXT FIRST - IT'S VERY IMPORTANT

 

• Please note that the K9 handler - not me - gave the dog an OBEDIENCE command, ("coucher" = "down")  and a correction. 

• I gave training advice -  which is what I was hired for.

• Note the time the dog went off the table. 

• Note the time the dog was back on the table. 

• Note how much assistance the dog required to get back on the table.

• Note the following two repetitions of the same "down" exercise. (the dog was trained with the command "coucher" - that's French for "down")

• Also note, on the last repetition, I immediately praised the dog.  His previous error was done, over with, and history.

• I also kissed him, but the video doesn't show that.  I'm sorry - I don't know how to edit videos.

 

Consider these facts: the dog in the video was a working, street police K9 for approximately 3 years before this video was made. 

He'd known the "down" command for years - but refused to obey his handler on this particular day. 

The dog's handler was a Sheriff's Office deputy for over 15 years.

We were preparing this dog for re-certification with USPCA, scheduled for approximately 2 months later.

There were several issues to work on with this dog, besides his erratic obedience.   

Was a severe correction in order?  Absolutely YES.  WATCH IT and SEE

ps: DOWNS are not PROTECTION training - they're OBEDIENCE exercises.

Goodbye Molly.  I would happily contribute $5,000. towards Gene's attorney if he would sue you for your PUBLIC lies, slander, defamation, and fabrications.  YOU ARE A LIAR, MOLLY GRAF.

People like you should be prohibited from any form of communication whatsoever.  Pennsylvania should put your "kennel" under indefinite quarantine - with you in it. 

You publicly manufacture lies about shocking, strangling, unconscious, dangling, flanking, choking, hanging with their feet off the ground, and several other acts of cruelty which you CLAIM you can substantiate.  You publicly OFFER to provide video proof of your lies.  You then LIE about your offer of proof.  YOU ARE A LIAR, MOLLY GRAF.

You further attempt to stand in judgment of what any helper should or should not do.  Obviously, you are personally one of the most experienced helpers in the world today, and your word is dog training law.  You alone feel competent to determine what is and isn't flanking, and/or that it should never be used. 

You have undoubtedly taken THOUSANDS of beginning dogs which have ABSOLUTELY NO PRIOR PROTECTION or AGITATION EXPERIENCE, and brought them out.  You obviously KNOW and UNDERSTAND all methods used to bring a dog out, and allow him to DISCOVER aggression towards a human for the first time.

You belong in an airline crate, Molly Graf, with a muzzle on.

You should be let out daily to use a toilet, eat, and wash.

Then you should be put right back in your crate.

This should continue for as long as it takes to train you to STOP LYING.

It would take years, but proper training always takes time.

 

Want to discuss how you USED and SCREWED Shelly Strohl?


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